During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Karla and Jeff discuss how artists are leading civic dialogues in their communities. Karla interviews Quenna Lené Barrett about her work as a theatre maker creating works about policy change. The episode concludes with a discussion about how change is necessary and why theatre-makers should be elected to public office.
In this episode you’ll learn:
How Theatre of the Oppressed pedagogies can be used in policy change work;
About examples of theatre makers centering queer and femme experiences in American founding documents; and
Why we need to create artistic pathways to civic dialogue.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
Illinois Caucus for Adolescent Health’s For Youth Inquiry (FYI) program
Arts & Cultural Education as a Fundamental, Civil, and Human Right
ABOUT QUENNA LENÈ BARRETT
Quenna Lené Barrett is a Chicago-based theater artist + practitioner, developing programs to amplify teen + community voice and hold space to rehearse, tell, and change the stories of their lives. She is a company member with ICAH’s For Youth Inquiry company, Associate Artist with Pivot Arts, and serves as the Associate Director of Education at the Goodman Theatre. Quenna received her BFA from NYU Tisch Drama, MA in Applied Theatre from the University of Southern California, and is pursuing an educational doctorate in Educational Theatre at NYU Steinhardt. As a director, performer, facilitator, and writer, she has worked with a number of companies including NYU Steinhardt, Oklahoma State University, Ohio State University, Chicago Children’s Theatre, Sojourn, The Theatre School at DePaul, Free Street, Pegasus, Court, eta, and Theater Unspeakable. Continuing to build the world she wants to see/live in, her most recent project was Re-writing the Declaration.
WHERE TO FIND QUENNA
This episode of Why Change? A Podcast for the Creative Generation was powered by Creative Generation. It was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Artwork by Bridget Woodbury. Music by Distant Cousins.
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Jeff M. Poulin
This is Why Change? The Podcast for the Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Estela Rivera
Hola. Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs
It's Rachel here.
Ashraf Hasham
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk
And I'm Madeleine.
Jeff M. Poulin
Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people, can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question Why change? Alright, let's get started.
Jeff M. Poulin
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Why Change? podcast. I'm Jeff M. Poulin and I am here with my co host today Karla Estela Rivera coming to us from Chicago, Illinois. Karla, how are you?
Karla Estela Rivera
I'm doing great, Jeff. It is finally summertime in the city. So we're enjoying this lovely weather. And also, just thinking about all of the wonderful things that we can be creating in the city this summer as we move into our phases of reopening, which is exciting and scary, but also, you know, a place to reimagine and find new ways of engaging folks. And so that's always a lovely thing.
Jeff M. Poulin
Certainly, it is definitely summer where I am to. It is kicking off a pride month LGBTQIA+ right here. Last, this weekend, we actually had the opportunity to go and experience a celebration that was just chock full of artists playing music, carrying on those messages, especially because we're not quite open yet. So you can't do the typical festivities of like a parade and a festival and things like that. But, you know, it's been really cool to see the increased dialogue, particularly with artists, you know, leading the way in the art that they're making and the songs that they're producing, in the performances that are occurring all around town throughout, hopefully, the whole month of June.
Karla Estela Rivera
Yeah, absolutely. Same thing here in Chicago. And this is always a month full of joy. So I love as an ally taking part in it, and celebrating my friends, and the ways that they show up as themselves and fully themselves and encouraging others to do so and particularly our young people who are always leading in this area, I feel and continue to be unapologetic in their own skin. And that is inspirational to me personally. And I know to so many others. So I'm ready. I can't wait to see what all unfolds this month.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, and I know that you had a conversation with an artist that's doing just that, it's increasing the conversations using theater, particularly in Chicago, around the role of young people in communities. So tell our listeners a little bit about the dialogue that you just had.
Karla Estela Rivera
Yeah, Quenna Lenè Barrett and I, are… we go back to pre Free Street days when, before I was the executive director, we were both artists. And, you know, she is a divisor. She is an arts educator. And one of the things that we definitely connect on is this notion that civic dialogue and theater are really so complementary to each other. And in a time when, you know, we're really not discovering, but continuing to name how systems that haven't been designed, particularly for bipoc, queer, non binary, and other marginalized folks, the more we continue to name that, the more we need to begin to create other structures and other mediums by which folks can engage in civic dialogue. And the work that she has done through the Illinois Caucus of Adolescent Health, and the work she did with her play rewriting the declaration, which you will hear about later on in this podcast, really speaks to that. And you know, I say more of this. And I don't want to tell her story. I definitely want all of you to listen to her story in the interview. And there's a lot of really wonderful nuggets to take away for folks to do things within their own city in their own country, their own…wherever they are in the world.
Jeff M. Poulin
All right, well, without further ado, let's get to the interview. We will just note that Quenna herself mentions a content warning. So for those of you sensitive to violence, just be sure to listen for that. Enjoy.
Karla Estela Rivera
Welcome to the Why Change? podcast. Quenna Lené Barrett, I am so excited to have you with us. Now, we have been in each other's orbits for many years in the arts education world. We’vee really found our connection together over at Free Street theater in Chicago, here we're both lead artists for the epic 50 and 50, where we, alongside 100 other artists performed 50 plays in all Chicago’s, all 50 of Chicago's 50 ward's in one day. An idea which our team credits you for.
Quenna Lené Barrett
Yes, sure. I'll take that credit. I'm pretty sure I was just like, what if, and, and y'all were like:“Yeah, let's do it.”
Karla Estela Rivera
And we did. And it was such a beautiful, beautiful moment and a wonderful day. You know, but these ideas, and centering communities, especially young people of color, across gender identities and experiences is kind of your jam. And facilitating these spaces, for reimagining and devising work through this lens seems to be central to how you have operated throughout your career. So I just kind of want to start out, you know, can you tell us more about all of the things you do and the kind of work that you champion?
Quenna Lené Barrett
Absolutely. And, yeah, I feel like I'm in this moment of sort of redefining what my practice is. And I wrote this in a grant application or something recently, and I said, you know, I think my practice now is, is really about keeping space, right? Like, making these kinds of spaces possible for folks who look like me, for younger folks, right? For young, brown, queer folks. Um, and so like, I think that's like the umbrella, right? And so under that umbrella, I'll say like, I am a devised theater maker, participatory theater maker. I think about a theater as a space to engage. I know Qualia over at Free Street always, you know, sort of asks the question like: “Can a theater be a space for change?” And, you know, she thinks No. And I, you know, I'm in this place of asking the questions, what actually can it be? And like, you know, why not? Like, why isn't it? And so that, that tends to be the kind of work that I get really jazzed about. So making work with folks who are impacted by particular issues and oppressions, making works about their stories, their lives, their experiences, centering their stories, right? Amplifying their joy, right? A lot of times we hear about the problems coming out of this community. Here, all of the issues, right? And not a lot of times we hear about actually the resilience that's happening in those communities. And centering young folks, right, and so centering them in their stories and their joys and pleasures. So I am an educator. My current sort of main job is as the Associate Director for Education and Engagement at the Goodman Theater. And I've been there, I guess, about two years, maybe a little longer. I don't know how to count time anymore since the pandemic, so who knows. And I make theater. Additionally, outside of that, right as a sort of devisor and a director, as a performer. I also am a student, currently, as I am finishing my dissertation, working on my dissertation for an educational doctorate in Educational Theater, right? So trying to tie all of these things back together. And I do different kinds of consulting, and other sorts of arts projects outside of that. So I recently became a part of this sort of new leadership circle at the Center for Performance and Civic Practice with Michael Rohde, and a bunch of really, really amazing artists working across the country. And they're just learning so much about civic practice in that space, reusing art in civic practice. Yeah, I probably could keep listing out things that I do, but those are some of the big ones right now. And yeah, I think that's the kind of work that I champion. Oh, here's the, here's the other piece, just to say I'm, I consider myself a theater of the oppressed practitioner and facilitator, right? So that a lot of my work and interest came out of Augusto Boal’s body of work, right that I found sort of, when I was studying theater as an undergrad, I found that space. I had, you know, these questions, things were sort of coming up for me about how theater might be used in different ways as I was studying and so I started to take community based theater classes and got introduced to that body of work and so that really has informed a lot of my practice and the work that I do, right? That we, as sort of non professionals, well, I guess I'm a professional but like, but folks, right, who may not traditionally be trained in the tools or given access to storytelling modes, actually can take over the modes of production, right? And use that as a way to control their real experiences. So, yeah, that's the kind of work that I champion. Work that, you know, is about building black futures, I'm going to use that word, that term from the organizing community. Work that is about centering folks who, you know, have been intentionally excluded from conversations from policies, and making sure that we, you know, can use sort of theater and art as a way to like, interrogate and challenge and disrupt and sort of build again, like build black futures, right? Spaces for us to just exist, right, to thrive. Yeah.
Karla Estela Rivera
Thank you so much. This is actually a really great segue into my next question, because I'm curious about how you got into theater and performance, and particularly devise and participatory work. So tell us about your origin story, as an artist.
Quenna Lené Barrett
Certainly, and I'll sort of give a content warning that, you know, there is some violence involved in this story. So, you know, if it sounds like we're getting to that part, feel free to take care, take a breath, do what you need to do, right, for yourself. When I was growing up, I wanted to be a singer. I wanted to be a lot of things. I wanted to be like a jewelry maker, I wanted to be a tennis player, I wanted to be the first black woman president, at one point. And I was a really, really shy kid. And, again, I don't remember being in a whole lot of programs. Like I had done some, but like never officially formally trained in anything. But I was always in a choir, it was always singing. And so that sort of led to me in high school to be in my first musical, my first play, which was Once on this Island, until we did that at school. I told the story recently, and I remembered that we actually were like, in blackface at the time, which was a little bit problematic. But like, nobody at that point, you know, 15 years ago, like, thought anything about it. But just to say… Wow! Anyway… I did Once on this Island, and sort of just performing in that play, I was like, “Wow, this is amazing!” Sort of, you can just be on stageand you can make people feel things. Like, you know, you can invite people into laughter or into like, deep emotion. And I was like, “this is what I want to do!” I also think I found that, you know, all of the things I was afraid to be in my real life, because I was a shy kid, like, I could do as a performer, right? Like, I could pretend to be all of these people that there was no way I was going to do at that point in my life. Um, so that's, like, how I got into theater. And so you know, I went to school to study theater, like I applied for the musical theater program. I think somebody, the gods knew betterand they didn't put me there, they put me in this experimental theater program where we were doing a lot of self scripting, which is what we called it. Today, I call that devising, like, so I started devising as an undergrad, you know, and we weren't using that language. That's just how I learned to make theater, right? Was to sort of start from my own experience, to start from a very embodied place. So that plus this like the story that I told a little bit earlier, right, this sort of interest that I had to make theater or to use theater for these other goals, right. So I went to a predominantly white school, I went to NYU (New York University) in New York. And while I was there, right, things were happening at home. So here's one of those moments of violence. So that this very particular story that I remember, there was a black child or teen. His name is Darion Albert. And he went to Finger High School. And so this was at the point when Mayor Rahm had closed 50 of the schools, right on the south and west sides. And that forced kids from across gang lines to go to school together, right? And they were not, to my knowledge, resources available to actually build out how that was happening. So this young boy was like, beat to death with wood scraps by other students. And like, I remember hearing about that, while I was, like, studying theater at this white school, and I was like, something doesn't add up here, right? Like, these things shouldn't be possible. And so that's how I started to get into right, more of the theater of the oppressed. Like, okay, I'm starting to recognize that there are issues that, you know, there's a history of violence and divestment from the place where I come from, right, on the Southside of Chicago. And like, might there be a way that I can use this thing that I am currently investing a lot of time and energy and somebody's money, I still haven't paid him back, yet, into. Right? like so, so that's sort of where that came from, and how I got into that, like ,community based theater. From there just really continued that, you know, I went and I did that. So I ended up minoring in applied theater. And when I did a Master's, when I came home to Chicago, was really like looking for who are the folks that are doing this kind of work. Found Free Street theater, I found ICAH, the Illinois Caucus for Adolescent Health where they really were doing participatory theater and work. And I was like, “yes, like, these are my people, I have found them.” And so just continue to do that work. I started a couple of programs using Theatre of the Oppressed. And that is participatory, right? That body of work invites the audience not to sort of be a passive spectator as the traditional theater does. It invites, you know, the audience to become what the Boal calls the Spect-actor, right? So that they have the potential to come in and change the story to change what's happening. We also talk about that as being a rehearsal for the revolution, right? That together, we are building skills that we can take back into our lives when we encounter these different forms of violence and oppression, right, so that we can sort of rehearse and communities that feel good, and then be better equipped, right, to navigate those situations when we face them in real life. So that's, that's, yeah, that's, that's like the background. And then I've just continued to make that work, continue to also perform… Like, for a long time, I was just like, “Oh, I'm going to be a performer and also do this, like arts education work and those are going to be the two tracks.” Really, the arts education has become the larger track, which is great. I've started to think about like, “oh, maybe I became an actor and that was like my gateway, you know, into this, this other kind of work?” that I feel very, very strongly called to and fortunate, you know, that I've been able to continue to work and do that. And that we're in this moment right now, where folks are actually able to see those kinds of stories, right? I feel like a lot for a long time, we relegated community based theater to, you know, particular spaces or like, you know, we don't value them as much as we valued traditional theater, you know, especially in this moment where we're calling out all of the systems including the theater systems, right? It's like, “Oh, no, actually there are, people have been doing other kinds of work!” People have been making this kind of work for a long time. Like how do we value and put resources behind that? Which absolutely Free Street, right, has been doing and ICAH and FYI (For Your Inquiry), which is the performance company at ICAH, has been doing. So really, really grateful that I've, you know, been a part of this community for such a long time.
Karla Estela Rivera
Yeah, some things that you just mentioned, that are kind of living in me and things that are very much things that I ascribe to you and believe in, you know, like these systemic things that happened, right, wrong closing all these schools. So this systemic thing, this one decision, not only impacting the educational paths of so many young folks, but then, literally impacting the lives, right? And how often we hear, particularly in political or civic conversations, and this is how I decided to run for office, right? And instead, you know, for many of us, who are artists, like, this is what inspired me to double down on telling these stories and creating these spaces, because I often believe that artists and artistic processes should absolutely be part of civic discourse, not just, you know, popping in for that ephemeral moment to punctuate a message. And so, you know, the, the, the, you know, the rehearsal for the revolution, and the fact that, you know, it is in theater spaces that, you know, as, as artistic director of Free Street says, and as, as we believe at Free Street kind of writ large is that we can begin to build the world that we want to see. And that our origin stories begin in these very specific ways has just, those things are really living in me, and I love that. So I just wanted to name those things as you were saying them, because I think that they are incredibly important. It's an important thread that we don't lose, specifically now. And then we can talk a little bit more about that in a bit. You know, when you and I first met, I was doing policy and advocacy work. And you are among the many folks who supported that organization, advising our team through our collective impact panels. Also, you discussed, you know, your work with ICAH, the Illinois Caucus for Adolescent Health, which I'm a big fan of, and they use theater as an educational tool to discuss health and reproductive issues with young folks and engage in their own advocacy initiatives. How have you seen theater be an effective tool, both in the education space, and to advance policy initiatives and systems change?
Quenna Lené Barrett
Yeah, I might ramble a bit, but I think the answer will be somewhere in here. This question, you know, makes me think about how folks talk about like “arts in education” and “arts integration,” right? A phrase that Whilla likes to use at the Goodman is “arts as education,” which I wholeheartedly believe in, right? And so when we're talking about the work of FYI, For Youth Inquiry, which is the the theater company at ICAH, the Illinois Caucus for Adolescent Health, we're talking about like theater based workshops that are happening in classrooms, in organizational spaces, you know, where we are performing a play, we're performing a participatory play. But it's about, you know, the experiences of young folks who are navigating these issues around sex and sexuality and conversations around them. You know, and so we are using that absolutely, as a tool to both educate and inform. Which, you know, it's embodied, it allows for folks to get up and play. It allows for young folks to, you know, sort of, perhaps see their stories represented. And not just that, right, then it allows for them to, again, take part in that play, right? And so, you know, I think one of the cool things about that kind of work is that there, it creates a sort of a distance, right, so that the student can sort of place the issue onto the actor, right, and not necessarily themselves and be so triggered, right? Because they're seeing these, these performers play out that thing. But by doing so, right, they're learning about boundaries, they're learning about consent, they're learning about their bodies, right, in a medically accurate way, in a way that is affirming to them, right, and doesn't try to shame them for any choice that they make. And so I really love that work because of it. And then, right, like the other part of ICAH’s work is that they have a youth organizing committee, but that's not, right, but like a group of young folks that are, you know, doing actions to make sure that these policies are shifting, right? And that's like, again, like, comes back into the theater space, right? So a couple years ago, we started a public season of work, which means that we do work not just in spaces with students, but in more public places where adult allies are present. And we are adding legislative actions into those plays, right? So we did a play that I co wrote and co directed, called, this book called “My Body,” which was about the issues that young people in particular face when they are navigating abortion care, right, they’re going to try to access it and the waters, right, the troubled waters that they have to encounter to get that care of oftentimes. And so at the end of that piece, you know, that there's a call to action, where folks are invited to sign letters, to sign a petition to our legislators to repeal the Parental Notification Act, which harms young folks, right, which can harm many, many young folks who are seeking abortion care. And so we are tying right these like policy goals, to the theater to the play. And again, inviting folks to do something in that space to not just sort of sit and, like to not only sit and witness, because yes, there's power in that, especially when we're talking about, you know, abortion stories, and other sorts of issues like that. But then to actually do something with the information that they have just learned.
Karla Estela Rivera
That's great. And I remember, you know, seeing some of this work, and then also kind of the follow up, like, you can sign this petition or you can help us sign witness slips, and I was always a big fan of the way that ICAH tied the civic, you know, tied art to civic duty and to, to creating another medium by which folks could digest policy. Because often, policy spaces are not spaces that folks like us are welcomed into, and the way that they are written and the way that they are presented are often very daunting and kind of obtuse. And so to leverage a play, to then you know, create it and and meet folks where they're at, and deliver it in a language that resonates, that then can move folks is really, really special. And so shout out to ICAH for their continued work in that way. So the last project we worked on together was your play “Rewriting the Declaration”, which we presented at Free Street right around the general elections last year. And even in virtual space, you were still able to devise much of the play, and keep it participatory and educational. Can you tell us a little bit about this play? What's it about? Why was it living in you? And what did you learn from the process?
Quenna Lené Barrett
Sure, again, will try on stay on topic here. So I started working on “Rewriting the Declaration” no less than five years ago. It's been a long time, like, I was at a completely different job when I started it. Um, and, you know, it was going to look very different than what ended up happening. But obviously, you know, we had the pandemic and we shifted it to be virtual, but we… Yeah, we devised the entire play online with an ensemble, half of them based in Chicago, the other half based in New York. And so the premise for the play was always about sort of how might we center a black queer feminist lens in reimagining the founding of this nation? Right, under the assumption that we have the issues that we have today, because the nation was founded in the ways that it was, right? The declaration being, you know, as a very formative text in our country, and that it didn't include, right or intentionally left out, all of the people who make up this country today, right, all the people who call the United States home. So it really started when I was very heavily organizing with the Movement for Black Lives. So I've organized with the Black Youth Project 100, the Chicago chapter of that org, and the Let Us Breath Collective, which is artists and activists, really, you know, using art in their activism, and so really influenced by them and influenced by what was happening again, like five years ago, right? So this is Trayvon Martin, this is Rekia Boyd, who’s Chicago specific. This is before we get to George Floyd, right? So like that first major wave of what we know is the Black Lives Matter movement. And Merriam Kabas sort of gave me this charge, for whatever reason I was talking about, you know, I just recently read the declaration. And I was like, it's hypocritical, you know, and she said, “Well, you're an artist. Rewrite it!” And it was like… Oh! So I had been thinking about that for a long time. And finally, finally started to explore what that looked like. So in the version that we did last fall, right, which was literally in the middle of the elections, right, we opened one weekend, and the weekend that we closed, and that was only a week in between, I think, something like that, um, you know, we had a new president elect, right. So right in the middle of all of that, chaos, I'll call it. It came to be about, so it follows this, this sort of class right at a school class, who take a trip back to 1776, they take a virtual field trip, because that's what we're doing these days, in schools, we're taking virtual field trips. And the students being sort of black and queer and non binary people of color are like, this is f’edt up, you know. And so they go on this journey with the audience to rewrite it in these very, very fun ways. Right, so we have like a mad libs game. We have a wheel of fortune inspired game, it's called wheel of restoration, where the audience gets to rewrite the grievances of the declaration. There's another game, some of the play is pre recorded, you know, which is a lot of how folks have been making theater. But we did want to make sure that it remains live because it had that very interactive and participatory element where we knew we had to talk to folks. So I think that was very important, that the ensemble made sure was very central to the play, was the healing journeys that sort of happened after we rewrite the document. And something bad happens to it. I won't give it away because you can go watch the play for free. Watch it. So we have these healing journeys, which very, very beautifully donr, you know, and again, all of this was devised by the ensemble. There's a sound journey. There's a dance journey. There's an like an altar and a meditation journey. So, you know, just really centering these ancestral and indigenous ways of healing that we don't talk about often. And so, you know, when I think about what I've learned from the process, so, so much, and like on so many different levels, right? I learned that we can actually do this kind of work online. That actually, you know, that format allows us to have certain kinds of conversations that we probably wouldn't have been able to get into, in a physical space, right? And so I'm thinking a lot about how do we continue to make the kind of accessibility that we discovered during the pandemic? How do we continue to keep that as we return back to normal, and I'm using my air quotes there, I don't think we should be trying to return to a “normal”l that should not have been the “normal.” So there's that piece… I think, you know, I learned what one of the sort of initial questions or wonderings that I had was, you know, can, again returning to this question like, can the theater space be a site of active change? And one of my big learnings was, yes, it can be, but you have to, I think, really include those and embed those policy conversations from the beginning. And this was something that we didn't quite do. And so like, we didn't get to that call to action piece, right? Because we didn't really consider that from the beginning in our device. And we didn't work with organizations who were doing some of that kind of advocacy and policy level work. So that feels like a missed opportunity. But like, when I talk about change, I can also talk about what happened within the ensemble itself, right? Because for many of us, again, like the ensemble was eight folks, seven or eight folks, all black, or folks of color, all fin- or non-binary, right. And for many of us, that was the first time that we've been in a room like that. I was the first black woman director that some of the cast had had, right? And so you know, at the end of the show, folks talked about just how transformative this space was for us as an ensemble, right, and that they will no longer go into rehearsal rooms, where there are not enough of them present, right or where certain conditions are not being met. And again, right in this moment, where we are also transforming the theater and how we make theater, I think that battle is also a very important learning. And something that we're all thinking about, right like how do we create more spaces like that?
Like, folks were showing up in their bonnets, you know, like, I never would do that in another kind of rehearsal space. We had a twerkatation. Yes, that is a twerk meditation. Right, and that like all fed back into why the play was able to be what it was right was because we weren't able to show up to rehearsal as our full selves. I'm just like, getting warm thinking about it.
Karla Estela Rivera
That's powerful. It's absolutely powerful to be able to show up as yourself in that way. And I mean, that's a very rare opportunity, unfortunately, still.
Quenna Lené Barrett
Hopefully moving out of it, you know, moving into more spaces, where those are possibilities.
Karla Estela Rivera
Yes. And you know, what I loved about this play, and I, and I think it was both the timing and the themes you played within the stories, one, being about creating new tables, when so many leaders have some of the most powerful decision making spaces in this country, built tables that were never meant for people like us: black, brown, non binary, immigrant and the like… And that you truly lifted a “we can take care of us” and “we can affect change” message that resonated with me so much, particularly on a personal level over the last couple of years. And two this notion of reimagining. You know, we are in a time right now, where as the country and the world begins to “reopen,” and I will also use air quotes for that, in this new semi post pandemic reality, I posit that we shouldn't be going back to the old ways of doing things, we should be reimagining how we work and live and create, and how all those things kind of coalesce. What does reimagining mean to you? And how would you invite others from artistic practice to policy to reimagine their work?
Quenna Lené Barrett
Yeah, what's coming up for me right now, and this is nowhere in your question, right, but I'm thinking about the work of abolition. Um, and that really is the work of imagination, right? In the, in the making of the play, you know, we talked a lot about and read in and brought in many sort of queer theory from it theorists, right, queer feminist theory. And, you know, they all talk that we have to, like dismantle these systems, these ways of working, we have to pause and really consider, right, like how habits of white supremacy show up in all of our work, right, even as artists sometimes especially as artists, absolutely as policymakers, right, that these systems were not intended, they were not built for black and brown folks, for non binary folks, right. So we have to really radically shift the ways in which we have been doing things. And I think that means we have to be okay with a couple of things. One of those is discomfort, right? We have to be okay, failing We're not going to get this work right the first time, or perhaps the fifth time, right. But we have to be invested in the long sort of shifts that it's going to take and that we are trying, right? And so that requires empathy and patience, certainly. I think it requires us to rest, right? I'm going to call in the Net Ministry and Teresa Hirsi here... That, like, pause is essential, that we have to be able to dream. Like I, you know, I, I sometimes joke about this, but I think that I hit a particular kind of depression, in that last year. And when you know, Free Street initially came and asked me “Did I want to shift into this play in a virtual space?” I was like, “I can't,” you know? And I had to, like, say no to some things. I had to just like, not do most of the things that I was doing to be able to imagine, actually, that this could live in this space, and that it was needed and necessary. But that only happened because I was able to rest and pause. I think I'm answering the question. So yeah, I mean, those are some of the things that I would invite others to do, right? To listen to community, right? To really be, both as artists and especially as policymakers, right? How do we shift resources? How do we move dollars? We always talk about “Oh, there's not enough.” There's enough. The resources are here, you know, it's about who have we given them to before? And how do we invest in where it really needs to go? Right? So again, shifting resources. And so again, back to the abolition, sometimes that means taking money away from things, defunding, right? Reallocate those resources, to the folks that will get us. right? And we can't again, we just cannot be afraid of the radical reimaginings that all of this is going to take.
Karla Estela Rivera
That's wonderful. You know, we are in this time, I feel like the great plates are moving beneath us. And that's uncomfortable. But we have to be open and then as artists, I think we're predisposed to these imaginings. And I always say call us in, we can help.
Quenna Lené Barrett
Listen, I used to, I said this, like so long ago, but I am so serious, if they let theatremakers into Congress.
Karla Estela Rivera
Come on now!
Quenna Lené Barrett
Just like, we would actually be able to get things done isI all I'm saying, okay?
Karla Estela Rivera
100% send us to congress… dot com!e're here! Oh, my goodness. Well, Quenna, it has been such a joy to spend this time with you, my friend, my co-conspirator, my colleague. We have a few questions, some quickfire questions. I would love to share. So as we get to know folks from around the world, and the work that they do, we seek to understand what keeps them going with their work in just a few short answers. So I want to start with you. Are you ready?
Quenna Lené Barrett
Yes.
Karla Estela Rivera
Okay, cool. So who inspires you?
Quenna Lené Barrett
Oh, so many people. Um, I'm going to just say black teens. Clearly they do, teenagers generally. Yeah.
Karla Estela Rivera
What keeps you motivated?
Quenna Lené Barrett
Legacy.
Karla Estela Rivera
Where are you most grounded?
Quenna Lené Barrett
At home. On the Southside of Chicago.
Karla Estela Rivera
Yes. How do you stay focused?
Quenna Lené Barrett
Help, really… help from other people. Napping, and napping.
Karla Estela Rivera
Wonderful. And our final question, why change?
Quenna Lené Barrett
I have two answers. One, why not? The second, because we have to.
Karla Estela Rivera
Thank you so much for your time today, Quenna. This was fun. And thank you for sharing your story with us and your journey. And we will see you again soon, I hope.
Quenna Lené Barrett
Yes. Thank you for having me.
Jeff M. Poulin
And we're back. Karla, what an amazing conversation. Quenna is such an incredible human being! I loved so much of what she brings to the world through her personal and professional mission, but also just this, this sense of like, grounding and soothing. Just her approach… I could listen to her talk all day about her work.
Karla Estela Rivera
Yeah, absolutely. And it's just, it's such an honor and such a joy, to have worked with her over the years, and to have been side by side in this work. But also to see, you know, how she's really taking a couple of key things, particularly “Rewriting the Declaration,” which is something that I, you know, bring up in the interview. And this notion of reimagining how, particularly in post COVID United States, you know, how we really need to begin to reimagine the ways in which we work. And how we need to begin to include everybody in that, and I think the roots in Augusto Boal and the theater of the oppressed will certainly lend themselves to that approach. But, and to that end, how we can then kind of reimagine how we live, and how we create and how we speak to systems and kind of reinvent those systems. And so it is, it's, it's, it's always a joy to talk to her about those things. Yeah! So, you know, I think the other thing that I would certainly add, is that when we think about our young folks, and we think about the ways in which, you know, we are providing tools, for them to be able to articulate their specific challenges from their specific lenses, and this particular moment, is incredibly critical. And certainly, that's a lot of the reasons why Quenna's work aligns with Free Steet’s work, but I certainly think that it aligns to, you know, a lot of the work that I'm seeing across the country. And so, you know, I think about the Homegrown Youth Collaborative in California, and other organizations that are really taking this intergenerational, you don't have to be a pro in the industry to engage in this work, kind of approach to say, you know, we exist, and we have these particular disciplines in which we utilize, you know, to, to create and make art, but then what can we do with this? And how can we use that to truly influence and affect change. And that, to me, is an incredible takeaway, and you know, more folks in this world need to hear that story. But also, I know that there are so many others that are continuing to do that work. So hopefully, they are also affirmed by this interview.
Jeff M. Poulin
You know, there's two words that you just said that I want to draw a line between, which was imagination and affect change, right? This idea that we need to be thinking, and imagining and dreaming and creating, about not only our own lives and futures, but about the systems that we have in place. I mean, how many times have we been in scenarios where we do things the way that they've always been done, because that's just what's been written down is the plan or in the handbook or in the policy. And, that permission to imagine that permission to deconstruct and to think outside the box and imagine and create new is, is something that is, in my opinion, absolutely essential, that we need to give ourselves permission to do in our lives in our organizations, and our communities and our nations. Because we can get stuck in a rut, just doing what has always been done. And when we do make those changes, when we do give ourselves that permission, the change that is affected is huge. And the thing is, it doesn't necessarily have to be that big of a shift, right? It could be the change of a word in a policy, it could be the change of, you know, a leadership group, in a community. It could be the change of a time of a meeting, that could down the road impact some incredible movement that we've been needing as a society for years. And I think that there's such great power in artists, particularly those that are operating in sort of that theater space or theater for social change space, because it the theater and the act of making theater gives people all of these capabilities in envisioning new futures and putting themselves in other people's shoes and building empathy in order to construct those futures that we really want to see.
Karla Estela Rivera
Yeah. And, you know, to, what I would say to you is, I think that there are people who grow up believing that that is absolutely their right. And they don't question that that is their place to do. And then there are people you know, I know growing up, Puerto Rican in this country, there were a lot of things that I was told I was not entitled to. And, and yes, you know, the, the, one of the greatest poisons in creating culture or shifting culture, is to say, this is how it's always been so this is how we're going to always do it. And when that is a thing that you're fed, and that you're socialized to believe, it is so hard to then reprogram your mind to say no, actually, this - I am well, within my right and my space, to, to not only have a role in influencing change, but you know, simply to create and respond, and speak out is often you know, a challenge for so many of our communities. So many of the systems that are created are so daunting and just designed for us not to act, not to exercise and take part in it. From the language in which policy is written to the way it's presented. So I'm so thankful for theater companies and other organizations who really take the time and are savvy and utilize these disciplines in order to not only communicate certain things to the community, but also to provide an outlet and a platform by which they feel comfortable, entitled, and empowered to, to take their rightful seat at the table and rebuild the table if need be.
Jeff M. Poulin
You know, and I think that that project, the Rewriting of the Declaration, like it's so powerful. That's something that just being an American citizen, I am blown away by that we lock on to these documents that were written hundreds of years ago, and expect them to be able to speak to the changing needs of people and communities today in 2021. Iit is absolutely shocking to me. And you know, when I was living in Dublin, Ireland, I actually lived there during a period where they did a constitutional review. And so what happens is, I think it's about every 10 years or something, and in fact, check me on this, but I think it's about every decade where they bring together people selected by like a lottery and members of the government, together, to review their founding documents of their country and suggest changes, which then go to a vote of the people… and you know, there's a whole process. But it just, it gives me such hope to think that there's an acceptance, that change is inevitable, and that we must constantly be adapting our systems. And I think it is so harmful to lock in to something that's fixed forever, you know, in perpetuity, because that's just foolish to imagine that there aren't going to be changing circumstances. I mean, even in the last year, who would have ever thought that we would need to be changing the way that we were doing things to account for a global pandemic? Let alone all the other things that occurred in 2020. But that certainly teaches us that, you know, nothing is locked in stone and, and that the processes that we have, can always be serving the needs of our, our communities, our organizations, you know, our neighbors, and so forth. But it, it also strikes me that there's no one better than a group of artists to sort of lead that process to reimagine what these sort of governing documents might be.
Karla Estela Rivera
Absolutely, I think if everybody, if every system are brought in devisors to their processes, and also made it, made democracy more accessible, and also brought in those voices that, you know, they claim to represent, and include them in that place, and in that, and then speak each other's language and, you know, engage in exercises that allow them to humanize each other, and then to say, all right, what is the world that we want to create that we want to build? It sounds very idealistic, but this is the stuff we do at Free Street every day with our work is, you know, how do we dream about the world that we want that, you know, that create the conditions for our joy and survival, because those two are critical to living to full life. Bring us into your spaces because I think we could transform them and make systems better. That's my pitch for theater people.
Jeff M. Poulin
You know, but I think that it's such an excellent pitch, Karla, especially like you use that term democracy, right? We, it's something that we've all I think probably learned about in theory, andou know, we fight so hard, and there are excellent fights that are being fought right now to secure the right to vote, for example. But I think that there's even an expansion of what that word can mean, right? It's not just the idea that, you know, we as people get a right to vote for other people to represent us and make decisions, but it's to actively participate. And it almost when I think about it in the abstract, it makes me sad, that to participate in democracy is really distilled down into like two camps, one, which is like voting on like a Tuesday in November. And the other is protesting in some sort of confrontational us versus them way. That I wish that there was a middle ground where we just accepted that we had to constantly change things and adapt, and that we would engage in some of those like devising processes just as people as part of our day to day lives and civic responsibilities, right? There are those who are, you know, apathetic and say, well, I'll go vote once a year. But then otherwise, I don't want to talk about policy. And then there are those who are like, fighting the fight every day, that I'm sure absolutely exhausted, because they're carrying such a mantle of responsibility, that imagine a world where everyone was participating in these type of devising activities, to imagine those futures and then translate them to those policies or systems that we have in our communities, right? I mean, that just is such an incredible thing. And I think that's why we fight for that, right to arts and cultural education, and that right to access and participation in arts and culture, and that right, for, you know, organizations to exist and for people to come together. Because those are the keys to enabling this type of system where everyone is creatively participating in democracy.
Karla Estela Rivera
Yeah, this is, we have a, maybe once in a generation, maybe once in a century, chance to take this pandemic moment, and really make some beautiful changes, is what I feel. And we have a very finite amount of time to do that before I think the masses readjust back to pre COVID expectations, and pre COVID ways of living, and pre COVID ways of operating. And my hope is that, you know, there is a collective sense of urgency, to, to take a moment to to, to name that and to commit to a reimagination.
Jeff M. Poulin
And I would say that it's not even just the COVID-19 pandemic, it's all sorts of pandemics. I mean, the idea that in the course of one year, speaking in the American context, we had a global health crisis, yes, which resulted in a recession. Which was then fueled by violence against black and brown folks at the hands of police, yes. Which then exacerbated some kind of political strife because we had one of the most contentious elections that we've ever had in this country. That's a whole lot of trauma for our communities to come back from. And I think that there is a, I would argue, like a social responsibility for us to not just try and flip a switch and go back to like, what, March 3, 2020? You know, before? Like, that's not that's not right. You know, we have to acknowledge all that happened and work to truly kind of correct it rather than just flip back to what was.
Karle Estela Rivera
100%. I agree.
Jeff M. Poulin
Well, Karla, there certainly is lots to be done. We were talking about it being summer, which means longer days, we're talking about our community starting to open up at least here in the United States with our real privilege of having access to the vaccine for the COVID-19 pandemic. And, you know, there's lots of exciting things to come. So tell me, I know that you all have some big events happening in Chicago with Free Street - what is on the agenda?
Karla Estela Rivera
So, next Friday, June 11, we are opening our show 57 blocks. So at the beginning of the pandemic, we had a show that went from live to digital. And now we have a digital to live. This is a two year project that is led by our Director of Education Katrina Dion, and another group of wonderful directors that have been working with her. And it unifies our Polanski Park youth ensemble and our Story Front youth ensemble which both our north side and south side of Chicago. And 57 blocks is what divides the two, the two ensembles. And so the notion is that in physical space, the play will go on. But it will start at Pulaski Park, and it will put folks on a bus and experience the play on the bus as well. And then take them down to the Story Front to finish that play. The themes that we will be exploring in this is this notion of portals, pathways and pipelines. And it'll be interrogating immigration, education and youth incarceration for our young people, and how they experience it, what their reflections are. So we're very excited to see this performance that will be happening next Friday. And then, again, we will be also raising funds through this - $57,000 for 57 blocks. And we will use those funds to then help fuel what will be, hopefully, this very epic performance that folks will be able to see and experience and ride and, and emerge out of in really wonderful ways, and having learned from these youth leaders that have just kind of woven some really gorgeous stories, while also talking about some really heavy topics that are so alive and relevant in their everyday life right now... Talk about the things that they have to carry in this time right now, we have to reimagine things. So we're very excited about that.
Jeff M. Poulin
Well, that sounds awesome. I only wish that I could be there to ride the bus and, and participate in that process and hear those stories. I wish you all all at Free Street the greatest success in this two year endeavor as it comes to its culmination. Here at Creative Generation we are welcoming a bunch of new team members. Our listeners probably heard the ads at the time of recruitment for our summer residency program. So I'm thrilled to be welcoming some new colleagues into the fold, particularly some young folks that have really great ideas about the future of this work at the intersection of culture and education and social change. So we have a busy week with that coming up and a busy month, enjoying our summertime here. In the communities that were based. All of us are experiencing summer right now. So really, really excited about that. And we have a bunch of new things coming up on the podcast. For all of our listeners. Stay tuned for part two of our conversation with Distant Cousins and many more guests to come. Karla, it was great catching up, as always. Listeners, we look forward to talking with you again next time.
Karla Estela Rivera
Thanks, Jeff.
Jeff M. Poulin
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Why Change? the podcast for Creative Generation. If you would like to support this podcast aimed at amplifying the voices of creative changemakers around the world, please consider donating through the link located in the episodes show notes. These show notes contain all sources discussed in the episode. Be sure to follow, like, subscribe, and share the why change podcast to make sure you and your networks get episodes delivered directly to you and that you don't miss any stories of creative work happening around the world. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, we'd love to hear from you. You can write to us at info at Creative-generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. Our show was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Our music is by Distant Cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.
Part B
Co-host Karla Estela Rivera speaks with guest Quenna Lené Barrett about her work in teather, specifically as a theater deviser. Their conversation spans Quenna’s youth in Chicago, studies in New York, and career between the two cities and across the country, and particularly the celebrated theater piece ‘Rewriting the Declaration’ which is a youth-centered participatory theater piece aimed at reimagining how a current declaration could be written today.
Imagination emerges as a key theme in Jeff and Karla’s conversation that follows. Prompted by the interview with Quenna they imagine together the benefits of embracing devising theater making techniques in policy contexts: “if they let theatremakers into Congress” says Quenna. This notion is later unfolded into the acceptance of changes, as a necessary step to pursue improvement, inclusion, justice, and health, as exemplified by the social, health, and economic crises in 2020.