During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Ashraf and Jeff discuss the connections between childhood artistic experiences and their work today. Ashraf interviews Courtney J. Boddie about her work as a theatre maker, teaching artist, podcaster, and more. The episode concludes with their reflections about personal sustainability and the reactions of the arts and cultural education field in response to the civic action resulting from the crises of 2020.
In this episode you’ll learn:
How amplifying voices helps the arts and education communities to document our work;
The role of teaching artists in driving meaningful programs in communities; and
About new resources to help the arts and education fields grapple with evolving social change.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
The New Victory Theater in New York City
Co-Conspirators and Engaged Witnesses from ChelseaDee Harrison
ABOUT COURTNEY J. BODDIE
Courtney J. Boddie is the Vice President, Education & School Engagement overseeing all programs related to school communities including the New Victory school partnership program, teacher professional development training in the performing arts and an innovative approach in the professional development of more than 50 New Victory Teaching Artists. A 2021 Crain's New York 'Notable Black Leader and Executive,' Ms. Boddie has expanded the theater’s scope of work in such programs as Victory Dance, which provides free dance and dance education to NYC summer schools; Create, a theater-based teacher professional development track for the city’s Pre-K expansion, the largest in the nation; and GIVE, a brand new initiative to address equitable student engagement in inclusion classrooms. During her tenure at New Victory, the Theater received the Arts Education Award (2008) from Americans for the Arts and a special Drama Desk Award (2012) for “...nurturing a love of theater in young people.”
In 2019, TYA/USA awarded Ms. Boddie with the TYA Community Impact Award for her leadership in New Victory SPARK (Schools with the Performing Arts Reach Kids), a robust multi-year arts program that has transformed New York City school communities previously underserved in the arts. Through intensive relationships with schools’ administrative and teaching staff, New Victory SPARK utilizes the theater’s existing school programs--including live performances by international arts companies, a highly trained ensemble of Teaching Artists and smartly-designed classroom curricula--to supply performing arts engagement that is as sustainable, creative and impactful.
Ms. Boddie is the Creator and Host of Teaching Artistry with Courtney J. Boddie, a monthly podcast featuring engaging and investigative interviews, roundtable conversations and panels with artists and arts education leaders. The podcast recently launched a video series called “We Can’t Go Back” with artivists, arts leaders and community activists discussing anti-racist and liberatory practices. She is an adjunct professor at New York University. Ms. Boddie is a Hermitage Artist Fellow and is a Women’s Center Media SheSource. She was on the Board of Directors of the Association of Teaching Artists (ATA) for 5 years (President, 2015 to 2017; Treasurer, 2018-19) and served on the Teaching Artist Committee of the NYC Arts in Education
Roundtable, and the editorial board for the Teaching Artist Journal. Prior to joining New Victory in 2003, Ms. Boddie was Program Associate for Empire State Partnerships (NYSCA) and a teaching artist for Roundabout Theatre Company. She received her Master’s degree from the Educational Theatre Graduate Program at New York University.
WHERE TO FIND COURTNEY:
This episode of Why Change? A Podcast for the Creative Generation was powered by Creative Generation. It was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Artwork by Bridget Woodbury. Music by Distant Cousins.
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Jeff M. Poulin
This is Why Change? The Podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Estela Rivera
Hola. Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs
It's Rachel here.
Ashraf Hasham
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk
And I'm Madeleine.
Jeff M. Poulin
Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people, can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question Why change? Alright, let's get started.
Jeff M. Poulin
Welcome to today's episode of the Why Change podcast. My name is Jeff M. Poulin and I am one of your co hosts joined today by our other co hosts coming to us from the west coast of the USA, Ashraf sham. Hey, Ashraf!
Ashraf Hasham
What's going on? Jeff, good to be here.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yes, it's good to see you the last time that we spoke you were on vacation recording live from the beach in California, what's been going on now? You're back. Right?
Ashraf Hasham
I'm back. Yeah. And since then, we… yeah, it's been non stop. There's all this amazing work happening in the government, because the American Rescue Plan Act has some money coming down the pike. And, you know, we're trying to advocate for artists to get some of that funding so that we can put our people back to work again, and that we can continue to create.
Jeff M. Poulin
Wow, it sounds like a lot is going on. That's highly responsive, you know, to the moment whether it be the social movements happening in and around your community, to the new public policies and funding measures that are occurring. You know, I myself, and also have a crazy week, not anything like that. But we actually just finished up the season working with young dancers. So I actually spent the weekend in North Carolina working with something like 700 young dancers back in a live space in an actual theater, which is lovely after the last year and a half. But, you know, it's really funny, I've been reflecting, I had a several hour drive. And I was reflecting on the experience, because this is the same youth dance company that I actually was with when I was a young person. But now I'm the adult there. And so it's a really interesting introspection into my current work and things that were absolutely transformative for me as a young artist, as a tap dancer back in the day. And so it really, it strikes me every time that I'm around, because I see the other side of, of what's going on. And it causes me to sort of reflect back to my own childhood experiences. I don't know, have you ever thought about the work that you do and what you know, 15 year old, artist Ashraf would have thought about all of the types of work that you do now that make those artistic experiences possible the you got as a kid?
Ashraf Hasham
Totally. I mean, I yeah, especially in the context of like arts education in the school day, and who has the money to get new instruments in the classrooms. And when you're building a new school that actually comes with the money to get a whole bunch of new instruments too, right? Like, capital budgets and shit like that? Excuse my language, right? Like that kind of stuff I would never have thought about as a kid. But how I got the trumpet to my mouth as a fifth grader through eighth grader is, yeah, that was our own internal struggle, right? Like, do we rent this trumpet? Or do we, like make payments to buy it? Like, it's an expensive thing… it's already kind of damaged, like, and then the school has some and they're kind of being “but what can we do?” Right? So yeah, the systems around all the work that I did as a kid around either photography, play music, or even finding my own way into like stenciling, and lettering and finding ways to put my my art into the world a little bit more deviously… that!
Jeff M. Poulin
And it's interesting, because these types, those types of reflections, thinking about our times, particularly now working as arts managers, or administrators, as we both do, balancing that with, like, our own artistic practice. I know for me, you know, I was talking about this actually, with our team at Creative Generation this past week, that I couldn't tell you the last time that I performed on a stage in musical theater or created choreography that was set on dancers or anything like that, it's been a very long time. But I apply my creativity in different ways into designing curriculum, for example, or in putting together creative approaches to launching this, these projects that we've done in a pandemic, right? A lot of creativity was applied to make this all a reality. And so it's interesting, because I feel like there's this ongoing balance that needs to be thought about. And, you know, when I envisioned that there's like, two different axes, right, if you were to graph this, and it's like, one is artistic versus administrative, how much do you want to be a creative and creating artwork? Or how much do you want to apply that creativity towards this tertiary level of systems change that might benefit it? And then the other side, the other axis is, like, professional versus personal, like, how do we map our time and, and lean into that self care and do what needs to be done as a professional but also not burnout? And I feel like there's a sweet spot. It's like one of those, those graphs that's generated from like a personality test, right? You know, you need to figure out what your shape is. Maybe you're a square, maybe you're a circle, maybe a diamond or a triangle, right. But yeah, how you actually map in that is something that I know I certainly need to work on. Maybe that's how I'll spend my summer vacation. But definitely another thing to, that we all need to be thinking about as sustained professionals in this weird hybrid space that we're in.
Ashraf Hasham
How do we fill ourselves with the creativity juices that allow us to really shine in different spaces, right? Like, Courtney did this in the interview that we, that we just had recently, and she told me about all of her work, actually, in the theater, still working on theater and, and, and getting really deep into the messiness of being creative and, and working with stories that aren't yours. And that balance of that along with like, a lot of really essential tasks to make sure an organization as huge and impactful as New 42 in New York is still running and still serving community the best way it can, it's like, yeah, it's a bit of a whiplash effect, right? Like, that's almost as much of the whiplash of like, essentially the workarounds that you have to create to make sure that you are able to do the thing, right? Like, think back to my, my parents trying to figure out how to get me a trumpet, you know, or like, all of that, like, but right before I mentioned this, is, you know, it's the negotiations, it's also just like, what does it feel like for your kid to actually do the thing, right? So it's worth it because you have the outcome at the end of the day. And whatever workarounds you have to get to, to make sure your kid has access to the things that allow them to explore different parts of themselves is worth it. But you have to do one on the other, you have to do the dirty with the clean and you have to do the sort of getting into the weeds along with being up in the clouds, right? It kind of all has to happen at the same time. Does that make sense?
Jeff M. Poulin
It absolutely does make sense. And I'm really glad that you brought up Courtney or Courtney J Boddie as her professional name is and the conversation that you had with her. I mean, I've worked with Courtney for a number of years, on a lot of different projects in a lot of different capacities. But we are those friend colleagues that I love so much, not not unlike you and I.
Ashraf Hasham
The best happy hours.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, absolutely. Where you can talk about work stuff, but also connect on that interpersonal friendship level. But I'm really glad that you had a chance to talk to her. So why don't we actually, us stop talking and let our listeners hear the interview, and then we'll come back and discuss some of the moments that you and Courtney connected about on the flip side.
Ashraf Hasham
Enjoy y'all
Ashraf Hasham
All right, welcome Courtney J. Boddie. I'm thrilled to introduce you to the why change podcast and our community. You are such a rock star in the arts education ecosystem. So much so that actually you're not super new to this community at all. Hella people know you or know of you, I certainly did before this. You're a teaching artist, you train teaching artists as faculty at NYU, and you're an upper echelon, dare I say executive at a big deal New York theatre company and also obviously a fellow podcaster. Tell us about yourself who you are, what you're up to, what you're known for, and possibly also the role of arts education or CYD in your life growing up and what led you down this path? Talk to me, what’s up? Hello!
Courtney J. Boddie
Hello! A lot of questions!
Ashraf Hasham
You made it!
Courtney J. Boddie
Hello, hello! I made it. Yeah, my name is Courtney J Boddie, and my pronouns are she/her and I come to you from the lands, water and air of the Muncie Manabe and Canarsie in Lonape Hooking, currently known as Brooklyn. And I am a cisgendered black woman who like leans queer, I guess. And I'm an artist, a teaching artist, but I am a podcaster. And as you said, I don't know…
Ashraf Hasham
Big deal!
Courtney J. Boddie
I'm Vice President of Education and In-school Engagement of the New 42 and New Victory Theater. It is a theater for young people that really opens up worlds for kids, families, teachers, students, young people. And really believes that extraordinary performing arts should be a part of everyone's life. And in terms of my own, like, upbringing, and theater has always been, theater and music actually, have always been a big, big, big, big part of my life. Both my parents were musicians. In fact, they met that way. They met at a like a, like a church or some sort of singing situation. And my dad was trying to like, impress his co-worker, and ultimately impress my mom, which was his, the co-worker’s sister. And so yeah, so like music was always playing in my house. My dad, like I said, played the guitar. I played the violin, nobody seems to know that. I said that to somebody recently, they're like “what?!” Singing, a lot of singing. And then we went into, I grew up in Long Island, in Port Washington, New York, and we would go into the city a lot and see shows off Broadway, on Broadway, as well as locally. So we’d go see a lot of the musical theater shows there or in the high school in my town and that kind of thing. So anyway, that… Wow, what a sidetrack! But, but all of that, like all of that, like I went, all of those experiences as a kid going to see theater, being surrounded by so much arts and arts making lent themselves to me knowing I wanted to be in theater without having a ton of experience, really even in high school. And so when I went to college, I was sort of, I was told that I need to stay in New York, please be in like a CUNY (City University of New York) or SUNY (State University of New York).And I went to SUNY Cortland, and when I was on the search and applying for schools, I thought I'd be a communications major. But I also was looking at like, do you have a theater department? Can anybody audition? Do you have to be a theater major? Because I, for some reason, didn't think I was ready to become a theater major. And so I went through a first year of college as a communications major, but the first thing I did was just show up for that audition. And it was a Shakespeare play, didn't understand Shakespeare to save my life, had no idea what I was saying. But got cast into a non speaking role. I felt like what that particular show ended up being was a huge masterclass. And that's not the greatest language, but like, it was a big, big learning opportunity for me to see these juniors and seniors in these like, see, you know, pretty major roles in the Shakespeare play that sort of like it all, like clicked, where I was like, this is this is what I want to do! And in that particular theater program, if you weren't in the show, you were doing something for each production. And so they really tried to create a, like a theater ensemble or theater company of the theater majors and anybody else who was involved. And so over the course of my four years, I changed my major and really went full throttle into this world of theater, including theater management, which I think, you know, takes me to whatever the kind of work that I do now. And I still feel like, you know, it was almost… I’m so old… that was almost 30 years ago that I started college. But I still feel like I'm learning. Like, I still feel like that freshman.
Ashraf Hasham
That's amazing. Wait till your second show was the show that got you in two theater in a way that was like, I want to do this forever. And it was in college that happened?
Courtney J. Boddie
No, no, I did. I did school plays. But I, that audition that I was talking about… so the fact that I take it off to go on my own as a, you know, 10th grader, or not 10th grade, sorry, I'm 10 years old, 9 or 10 years old was that, I'd say like that, that sort of that 10 year old, was the same one who was like, I don't know anything about Shakespeare as an 18 year old, but I'm still gonna audition. And the same person who said, I don't know much about educational theater, but I'm still going to go to grad school, and then I'm going to audition for plays there and, you know? And so on and so forth. Even now, you know, and I'm in the middle of, of working with this beautiful group called the New York City queer playback theatre. And I've never done this kind of work. It's improv, but it's about enacting stories that are that are care takely told by an audience member, and then there's different forms with which to enact their story. So there's a big empathy building piece, a gift of like, you share your story, we're going to gift that story back to you and these different theatrical forms. It's quite special. So as somebody who's a trained actor, as well, as an, you know, somebody who's studied improv, the idea of being able to do new things.. even after you know, 30 years, you've gone to college… like that, that is a very special thing, I think. All of that, all those kinds of experiences feed back into me as a podcaster. And to me as Vice President, and to me as a, something that we're talking about internally, with our teaching artists as being a co-conspirator and engaged witness. This language is brought to us by Chelsea D. Harrison, and there are other wonderful teachers that we work with who are helping us to think differently, and deeper about the work that we do.
Ashraf Hasham
Yes, baseline of empathy, right? Like, how do you just in, in essence, allow other people to experience something that they actually have never again, never experience? Because whether that's in the past or very specific context, but you're telling you a story, that is part of somebody's consciousness, their identity.
Courtney J. Boddie
And then there's this whole other layer that I'm still trying to process because we just had our first performance as this group two weeks ago... And in the middle of it… this is the first time this group has been doing things on zoom, and so eventually, I think it'll morph into in person… But there's this sort of spectator, or I guess it's a spectactor, but like, there's a theater component to being in the midst of a performance, because you're participating in certain ways. And then you're also having to deeply listen, because you, there's a certain point that you don't know, if you're going to be chosen to then enact, so you have to be listening. And, and then if you're not, if you're not chosen, right, you're still listening. But then you get to actually watch your colleagues also do that in enactment. And so while the storyteller is the only one who really is speaking, there's something really quite, I don't know, palpable, and incredibly special about watching that enactment.
Ashraf Hasham
Wow. That sounds…
Courtney J. Boddie
It’s deep, it goes deep.
Ashraf Hasham
And it sounds like it's, yeah, it is something that stays with you for a long time. So I'm sure these stories find themselves in other people's lives and then also relating to… Oh my god, like, yeah, you're right, the layers!
Courtney J. Boddie
Off times, whether wether you are a performer, you know, you’re selected as a performer or not, there is something that you can connect with, and some are, you know, those deep those connections are deeper, potentially than other stories that are told. But it is about like humanity and human beings like an individual human being and caretaking for them in that particular moment. And how does that translate to how you think differently about caretaking for others, including strangers.
Ashraf Hasham
Randos!
Courtney J. Boddie
But even strangers, you know, for the most part, it's turning something in me that, again, has some… I'm sure will have some impact on other work or aspects of my life.
Ashraf Hasham
And it keeps you learning and growing and inspired, so sparked by this amazing thing called theater that you find yourself dedicating your life to, or at least like part of your life too, right? Like, that's beautiful.
Courtney J. Boddie
Yeah, and I would say, you know, because of the, the intense the intensity of my full time job, it is challenging to be, to always be after, making sure I'm also being artistically creative. But I always, whenever I do jump into some sort of project or if it's ongoing, the creative… that creativity is incredibly important. It feeds me in ways that you know, other things can't. So, and again, that sort of pause like it impacts, the intrinsic impacts are deeper.
Ashraf Hasham
Hmm, oh man, there's so much deeper, and deep analysis that we do so much like you said in our day jobs… That like, you know, for folks like you and I who work in spaces that can affect some sort of systems change that will affect other people's lives and livelihoods and and specifically folks who look like us right folks who are have some melanin and folks who can be in spaces are invited in space and some some who are not invited into those spaces, right, we find ourselves in those spaces. And that seems like a full time job in and of itself, figuring out how to be. I heard you talk about this actually, in a different podcast, it was filmed, I think, or whatever, recorded right before the November elections. You we're talking a bunch about what's gonna you know, either way, what happens is elections. I gotta be ready. I gotta chill. I gotta save my energy. I… so that so resonated.
Courtney J. Boddie
I wonder, I don't know, I definitely do not want to ever relive the last four years, but I wonder if we’d be in this place to have this ability to to make deeper change if we didn't have the last four years. Because it's not about the people who've always been saying this, and been gaslit along the way, right? It really is about other people having, finally, hopefully, we'll see, starting to sort of see what has always been there. And I could just listen to… Oh I'm not going to get his name right... But I guess like a football player who's now a sportscaster Shannon Sharp? He was like, you know, white people in America don't want to have this conversation. But the only way things are gonna change is if we have it. I mean, he was talking, you know, very animatedly and sharply, but that was the basic gist. And I think, you know, even those of us who do have melanin, we are challenged about having those conversations, and having to be in different spaces and push people to have those conversations. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. But there's something in my opinion, I feel a responsibility. I feel a responsibility to, you know, if I'm, if I'm the person who's in the room, and often I am the only person of color and more specifically a black woman in that room... How do I not say something? I decided to try and, you know, create some self care for myself as I can. One is never underestimate the power of my voice. Which is very, very hard for me. You know, if I go back to that 10 year olds, she had a voice in very specific places, and in public places, it was harder for her to really feel that voice was being heard, or had anything to say, really. And I have a lot to say… clearly, I have a podcast!
Ashraf Hasham
Sounds deep. Yes.
Courtney J. Boddie
Yeah. Yeah. So that's something I'm working on is, you know, speak up every time!
Ashraf Hasham
Every time. Yeah.
Courtney J. Boddie
And to be honest with you, that part isn't exhausting, I've realized. That's not the exhausting part. It's the… I'm speaking up to create the space for others to speak up.
Ashraf Hasham
There it is.
Courtney J. Boddie
And when others don't, that's, that's where I can get like, oh… But I've been also working with a really wonderful executive coach. It's been great to have somebody supporting me who is listening, able to listen to, like me say, “Oh, I'm trying, but I can't or I don't know how to approach this” or, you know… People are, you know, voicing their opinions, and I want to create space for that, I want them to feel heard, but not just heard, but actually do something. And for them to know that their voices and their opinions are being deeply considered and impacting change as well. And I think, you know, in this particular moment, a year ago, two years ago, if these things were said, if any issues are still being voiced that haven't felt like there's been any change, like I don't know how long they keep speaking up without action being taken? So that's where my, I feel like my responsibility lies is to say “no, no, there is some somebody listening I think that they're more and more people can listen, and maybe it's it's me, who can figure out how to create more spaces where that's heard so it starts to permeate in other spaces that you're not in or thatand I'm not in.” There's many spaces that I'm not in, but I'm in a lot of spaces. So anyway, so the power of my voice and how it and the platforms with which I use that voice, also trying to, like a portfolio - diversify. So out, you know, sometimes it's like I was having this conversation, I'm going to send you a little like headlines via email. So that's what I love about my coach is that he's always like, let's…What can you appreciate? Let me appreciate this thing! Because of course I'm like, well we have it and he's like, “No, no, before you go into like, what more? Let's talk about how you made this choice.” He created this space for conversation, consideration, and now action is happening. And yes, there's more work to be done. But like, let's celebrate that. So he calls that “micro-progressions.”
Ashraf Hasham
Oh my god, stop. I've never heard that before. I love it. “Micro-progressions” you heard it here first, fierce. Yes. Oh my gosh. Something about that gets me… my heart racing. in just a good way!
Courtney J. Boddie
It’s helpful, because it encourages…
Ashraf Hasham
ratitude.
Courtney J. Boddie
Movement, it allows you to celebrate the movement that happened.
Ashraf Hasham
Yes. And so often, we just forget that we just did something that was kind of profound. And also, there's so much more to work on, just like you said. Before we go to the next thing, let's just take a second, celebrate, and just be in our bodies for a second and celebrate. And then we'll go back to the work. But it's never, never easy to do is take that space.
Courtney J. Boddie
Where you're talking about being your authentic self and all those spaces.
Ashraf Hasham
Yeah, like how do you know, first of all, how do you know whether the space you want to create, you've already you've created or not? Like how do you know? Like, how do you know you yourself are being authentic in those spaces, right? I guess you can never really maybe know.
Courtney J. Boddie
Here's what I'm starting to think I realized… is when people feel as though they can say there's an agenda, but I need to speak up. And they hopefully believe that they will be listened to in that moment. So that's one way. Everybody is complex, and everybody has different styles of communication. And it's not going to be the same in every single space. That's an, I think that's a natural human thing. It doesn't mean that you're false in one space and false in another, it means that like, I could come into this space, and be super tired. And so my energy might be a little lower, therefore my voice might be a little lower. And I might not be making as many jokes as maybe I would if I were in a different headspace or energy space. And there's, you know, you know that term, like “read the room.” Man, there's some people who are like… they don't really pay attention. And so I think that that could be a part of this, like, how are you intentionally creating enough space for people to come in as their whole selves? That is hard! that is very hard
Ashraf Hasham
It’s ambiguous.
Courtney J. Boddie
It's… right! It's ambiguous. So it's about contextualizing either the reason why you're there, and maybe what's going on in the world, which is also very challenging, I find. I find that, like, sometimes you're working so hard, that you're not necessarily able to pay attention to something that's going on outside or globally. And to bring that into any given space or any given meeting without having, you know, enough wherewithal slash, deep understanding of that, I think is hard. That idea, you know. So something that I'm trying to be more mindful of is asking the question, like opening up a meeting, if there's time - How are you showing up today? And I'll share, like, I've been in back to back meetings, I've been in this, and I'm feeling like, I would love to just turn my camera off because blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever the thing is… And I think by bringing your authentic self into the space, itgives permission for others to feel comfortable to share that. And then that also just gives you a whole host of information to quote unquote read the room. And so me coming in and doing a stand up comedy act is not going to necessarily be the right frame of mind for somebody who just got some really terrible news that you can't know about. But by asking that question, that gives some space for them to choose what to share - one. And two… and I just learned this like, literally like yesterday…
Ashraf Hasham
This is gold!
Courtney J. Boddie
But I'm trying, I'm trying like, I'm trying to also be… there's all this, like, caretaking that we tend to do when we're working with young people. And we don't necessarily apply those strategies when working with other adults, in a work environment. And so that's what I'm also trying to pick up on and figure out is like, how do I actually apply some of those strategies that I would do in a workshop or professional development or working with kids and caretake for the humans, the human adults that I say I care about.
Ashraf Hasham
Oh, that's beautiful. And part of this space too, I'm hearing you kind of say, is that you, not only are you showing up modeling kind of what you what you yourself are putting out there, right? Like you're showing up and you're saying, this is how I'm entering the space today, how are you entering the space today? But you're also also making space for not knowing what the answers are, right? You don't actually… part of the space is that none of us actually know what the answer is and that we're going to be uncomfortable and not have resolution probably after this. So like, know that. Like, that's a little bit of what I'm hearing from you as well is like, just prepare.
Courtney J. Boddie
Yeah, I mean, I feel - yes, yes to all that. I don't always, but like being able to give a little bit of a roadmap, if there is an, you know, the ability to state a goal, still not know exactly how you're going to reach that goal, I think that that's, this need to have the answers, it's actually, I think, detrimental in so many ways. And it's definitely a part of a conflict of white supremacy…
AShraf Hasham
White supremacy, yes.
Courtney J. Boddie
And so I'm trying to disrupt, I am trying to do that. But I'm also realizing that that's helpful for me to not, to be able to say, I don't know the answer. Why, why, why, why? Why do I have to make it up? And sometimes, you know, sometimes it's not great to say that, it's like saying that to your boss, for example, it's like, I don't have the answer. But let me think about that. That's something, that's a great thing for me to like, process and think about, and I'm going to get back to you either with more questions or with a part of an answer, but not the whole answer.
Ashraf Hasham
Yes, and this leadership that you're now having to model and figure out how you fit into is kind of the new role, right, that you're taking on. So Courtney, you talked about the We Can't Go Back series that you did with Creative Generation on that podcast that I talked about a second ago. Tell us more about the We Can’t Go Back series?
Courtney J. Boddie
Well, first, I want to say that Creative Generation has been a really amazing partner. Jeff and I go way back. He's been a guest on my podcast several times, working for a different institution. And now, with Creative Generation, we've actually had two projects together and maybe somethings is, you know, coming down the pike at some point, I don't know, we're always dreaming and scheming, you know what I’m sayin’?With We Can't Go Back a couple things were happening. We had just finished the Keep Making Art series, and I, and all these conversations around race were happening as protests were happening as a result of many, many, many issues, including the very point wingnut moment of the murder of George Floyd. And I was already sort of feeling like, you know, there's a lot of work that has to happen at the organization. I wasn't in the executive team at that time, but what do I, what can I control? What can I make impactful change around and it was, for me, the podcast was a clear place, and platform. And so I, I think it was a lot, one of the last episodes of Keep Making Art, it was just me talking. And I chose us to tell a story of my dad integrating his college campus, and how for many people at any given time, but in that particular time, for me, calling upon my ancestors was important. And bringing him into my sphere was really important to help me understand like, what can I do, where can I go? And to push myself really. And so I was already sort of thinking this way. And when Jeff and I were having a conversation, but we weren't, we were talking, I was sort of explaining like, I would love to make another a different piece, but I don't know what it is. And so the more we spoke, it got to like, what if we talked to people who have been doing social justice, racial justice, EDI, anti racism work, to help make some connections between what we think needs to happen in the arts field and what is already happening in certain spaces. And so that's sort of where We Can’t Go Back was born. It was launched in August. So that conversation I think, happened in June, and by August, we were out putting weekly episodes.. So we have 20. It's a bank of 20 episodes on the teaching artistry podcast YouTube channel. And I was working, I was partnered with Andre Solomon, who was the producer. So together, we sort of worked out a plan and I invited I think 22 or 23 different guests in those 20 episodes, there were a couple panels that had these, you know, really strong and important, impactful conversations that were helping me dive in like deep into listening mode for incredibly generous, all the guests were incredibly generous with their time, but also with what they were sharing about the work that they do and their views on how the the field needs to shift and change. And out of that, then Andre wrote a document that was a reflection of the learning from that experience, because the two of us were engaged in different ways. So I was the one listening in the moment. And he was the one who was editing and putting the materials on to the the channel, and writing the blogs. So there's a set of accompanying blogs with each episode, as well as this, this reflection document. So it was a big labor of love for both of our parts. And I always say, much like with the pod squad, for the audio platform, between people like Andre, who was focused on We Can't Go Back, then Weber is our producer, and Christopher Totten, who's the Director of creative content, like without the teams, none of this is possible, right? So there's a lot of internal conversations that are happening about how do we want to reach audiences? What do we want to do? What are we gleaning from those experiences? And how are they applying to other aspects of the work that we do in other spaces and or within this particular space? So it was intense. A deep evolution that I keep going back to, in these six months, I've been going back to, to remind me to like help re spark something that might have faded for a second, and now it's coming back to the fore, or to rethink about like, “Whoa, I had maybe different perceptions and different assumptions and whatnot then I have now” Because I do feel like, you know, the shift, how things are shifting and where people are. The time for that is getting shorter and shorter.
Ashraf Hasham
Tell me about it. I think it's all the time. Yes, window is closing actively. People's comforts are layered on top of their discomforts, which, which look kind of like the, just like a cootie catcher or whatever, right? Like you kind of folding and unfolding and folding and unfolding. And then there's just some parts that get pretty destroyed over time. And then they just fall the write off, right? Like, yeah, it feels like a lot of people's work is either fading or falling off, or perhaps folding on itself.
Courtney J. Boddie
So this is, what I like about this document is that it's,, as I said, a reflection. But then there's also links to a lot of the resources that were discussed in the conversations. You also could like, click, if you wanted to click into each of the actual episodes, some of those episodes are also on the audio platform, not not all of them. So you can see if you really want to get into archive, you can watch them. But when I put them on the audio platform, I was, I sometimes I was taking two episodes because the video episodes are shorter than the audio plan. But yeah, so other resources, books, websites, social media that really fall in line with the kinds of conversations that we were having. And ultimately, this is I think, you know, potentially a good resource for people who want to do some more learning.
Ashraf Hasham
Yeah, that's beautiful. What a bank of knowledge you keep using that word bank, I love that! Like what a huge savings bank of knowledge that we hopefully will keep tapping into, like you've been tapping back into… When you have been going back what are the couple of like one or two or three things that you've been surprised by or perhaps like have stuck with you or or, or any examples of like how you have gone back recently, and been like, Oh shit, that was that was different than what I thought it was now, or like I'm seeing this differently?
Courtney J. Boddie
Well, I think there's, there's reminders. There's definitely a lot of reminders. Well, I definitely have like, there's certain quotes that like ring around. Like Darrel Cooper now. Dr. Darrel Cooper, yes. In the panel discussion, he says something about “You were put here for a reason. You just need to wear the crown.” That's that's a quote of quote.. Yeah. I'm looking at the people to see Oh, yeah, like, see Brian Williams, who's the founder of Step Africa in DC. And they've been doing like, remarkable, remarkable work. And his, something that he talked about was the how, you know, the philanthropic world needs to reckon with itself, as well as you know, the large, mid and small who's getting the resources and how, what is the responsibility of those organizations that are larger for more equity within the field writ large? So that's been on my mind as well. Yeah.
Ashraf Hasham
There's so much there.
Courtney J. Boddie
There's so much… Ashley Herrings. So Ashley and I met years ago, and, and in this conversation, I mean, she was saying things that just blew my mind. Hmm. And like, the first time I think, for me, I realized oh, nothing is nothing is ever going to be simple, again, Like anything that you ever thought was simple is blown out of the water and then it's just going to get more complex. The like, that was, you know, sometime in September, October and I still have, go back to that thought. Like, “Oh, wow, oh, nono!” She, she, like, opened something up. And now I'm realizing, oh, this is more complex. And that's Oh, nothing is ever going to be… like that's the We Can't Go Back.
Ashraf Hasham
Pull the thread. Yeah, that sweater will come on, undone. Shout to Weezer.
Courtney J. Boddie
But, but that, but then it's like, you know, I pull this thread. And now the thread might be red. But it could turn orange, and it could turn green. And I could place it in a different place. Or I could gather because you know what, that red thread is not something that we need. That's what I'm, that's what I'm coming to. And I feel like sometimes I'm thinking like super high, like in these weird higher levels. But it's because that's how caught like, that's how complex this feels.
Ashraf Hasham
That's… yes!hat, I want to make the reference of like, how do you make a picture in zeros and ones, right? Like, how do you even like, how does this whole computer like images and video transfer thing happen? Through ones and zeros? Like how do you change the the, the chemistry behind it so that you can actually see it differently? Right? Like, I don't know, that's? That's crazy.
Courtney J. Boddie
I think maybe you're right, it’s chemistry.
Ashraf Hasham
Yes, exactly. Just gonna experiment, try stuff out, have a space to try it out. Right like to feel safe in doing so. And to be able to ask those questions where you'll never have a resolute answer. Maybe you'll have an answer, but it's gonna change. It's gonna become more complicated. Every day is different.
Courtney J. Boddie
Yeah. And then I just wanted to shout out Dia Whitaker, her conversation, like she just let it rip, and I ... But she's, she's very poetical. When she, the way she speaks, it's… and she's got scholarship, and she's, she's a dancer, and so she has both the, the scholarship and the, you know, the groundedness of physical, physical. And she's out here, and I'm seeing like, the conversation that she was having with me. I'm seeing the evolution of that happening in her artwork.Engaging in social media, how she's sharing, like, what's happening in her life. Like, it's really fascinating to see, like, because I'm friends with most of these folks and I follow you know, their social media and I'm engaged in different groups to see their evolution and what's happened like… Yeah, all these people are like, my, my touchstones y my North Stars who helped me continue to lean in and push forward. Even if you pass this video, this particular video series.
Ashraf Hasham
That's beautiful. I'm so glad that you mentioned this fellow voices that you that you're so generous to use your word earlier in amplifying because these leaders are out here doing their work, and we're so far apart both during COVID and also just like straight physically, and geographically how are we ever going to come back together and bring bring us all in the same space? The way that you've been doing it through this series that We Can’t Go Back as well as your teaching artistry podcast and some of the other platforms, I'm sure as many platforms as you have, has been just stellar to be able to witness from the outside. So I just want to thank you for amplifying fellow voices for new voices, old voices, voices that we've heard already, voices that have never asked to be heard, right? So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And, all right, we're gonna, we're gonna end it up with our little lightning round segment. You ready? So we're gonna answer maybe three or four questions that end with the question that is the name of this podcast. So as we get to know folks from all around the world, what they do we always ask them these few short questions. Okay. So the first one you already answered so I'm not going to answer which is who inspires you? So don't answer that you already did that. All your homies, all the people, all the voices, all the folks doing the work. Alright, so how about this one? What keeps you motivated?
Courtney J. Boddie
Love. Love and connection.
Ashraf Hasham
Where are you most at home?
Courtney J. Boddie
In a pool
Ashraf Hasham
Bodies of water?
Courtney J. Boddie
bodies of water, I'm a swimmer. And that, swimming gives me a tremendous amount of life.
Ashraf Hasham
Oh, that's beautiful. How do you stay focused?
Courtney J. Boddie
Do I? Well, obviously, the swimming the swimming pool. So I swim. Yeah, at least once a week, if not multiple times. And that is a big, being able to sort of shake off and that the reset and the reinvigoration, it helps with the focus. I also try to get enough sleep I'm not great recently. But sleep is, that eight hours, is very important. And I'm reminded of that, almost daily. Hydration!
Ashraf Hasham
Drink that water people. And you mentioned creativity earlier, you say, you stay going and you're in a theater practice. And finally, why change?
Courtney J. Boddie
I don't know how else to be. But why change is because, oooh… Like, I don't even know how to answer that question. Because it's like, of course, you got to change. I've tried to come up with a cool answer. It's not.
Ashraf Hasham
No pithy, no pithy answers.
Courtney J. Boddie
You know what? I feel like there are big things in life that I am afraid to change. Like, where I live. Like I live in a studio apartment, I deserve a bigger space. I don't move. So that's one type of change of life, changing your environment. Why change? Why change? Because you're worth it. Why change? Because we all need to grow. Why change? Because striving to be a better human being is about change. Why change?
Ashraf Hasham
You answered a few times.
Courtney J. Boddie
I want too, I want to be able to look back and know that I've done everything I possibly could to make this world better in some way.
Ashraf Hasham
There it is. Same. Yes. You killed it. That's the answer. Ah, this was so fun. Courtney, thank you so much for taking the time on a Friday evening.
Courtney J. Boddie
This was this was delightful!Thank you for taking the time.
Jeff M. Poulin
Welcome back. Ashraf, what a phenomenal conversation that you had with Courtney, I haven't had the chance to be on a podcast with her for some time. So it was great to hear her voice again. You know, what were your impressions? You guys talked about a lot of really, really in depth stuff.
Ashraf Hasham
Yes. So much. Yeah, we went all over the place. But like, everything from like, yeah, I think what got me the most. And what I was most excited to talk to her about was like, how does she do it, right? Like, not only is she able to have that silky smooth voice that we love to hear, both in the boardrooms and also in community. And in her own head, right, like, you can tell that she thinks about things a lot. And to be able to sort of have a moment to really like dissect and examine was really a gift. And specifically around like, the age old topic of code switching of being your authentic self, and of figuring out if you are even doing that, right? For me, it's like, I don't even know if I'm doing it half the time. If I am being my authentic self, it usually means that I am. Usually if I don't have to ask myself, it means that I, that I do, I am probably doing the thing. But as we talked about in the episode, there's left when white supremacy culture comes in. And for me as an immigrant to this country, it's also like assimilation, right? Like, what do I need to survive here? And how can I go as far as I can, without being called out for being other. And I see Courtney walking a little bit of that line in her work, but also just as she walks through the world, right? Like, even in those theater spaces, where she's telling stories that aren't her own and collaborating deeply… Well, that is just such a… Yeah, for me, it's just a never ending, you can't really have an answer to that question. But I think we did it. We got pretty deep into it.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, you know, one of the things that stood out was, she had said something really specifically and you had expanded on it to about this idea of speaking up to create space for others to speak up, right? But there's this almost compounding effect of the application of what you know, scholars would call it liberation theory. And, and the navigation of those systems. Creative Generation, in some of our underpinning research that helped found the organization, you know, we learned really specifically that a big gap with projects or programs or organizations that intersect arts and culture and education and youth and social change is that navigating the very strict systems, whether they be funding public policy, or social, which speaks to the white supremacy culture that you're talking about, that navigating those systems is somewhere that organizations and the people who lead them were really striving to grow. And those systems are incredibly strict. And how we work within them to disrupt them became a key finding for us. And so that just really spoke to me about how there are people who are working within these systems. There are people who are disrupting these systems. And then there are people that have like megaphones, like you and I do with this podcast, or like Courtney does with her podcast, that are really kind of holding, they’re like the football linebackers, right, like holding the space as hard as they can, in order for people who need to be heard to be heard.
Ashraf Hasham
Yeah, I love that. And the fact that even you mentioned navigating the systems as the goal is like, should that be the goal? is another question we should ask, right? Like, should the systems be navigable on their own? Like, shouldn't they be designed to be user friendly? Right? You know, laughter comes from uncomfort. Discomfort comes from systems of oppression, right? And so I leave with the idea of us getting to a place where we're working around again, going back to the workaround thing, like, are we working around it to get to the system to navigate it? And are we getting the system to hear us in a way that only it can hear us in a specific way? Because I think that's part of it, right? That's part of the struggle is adjusting the tone, adjusting the voice adjusting the the words themselves to reflect it's like managing up in like, all the way up kind of a way in which the system itself is what needs to be managed, not the people who were at the helm of the systems. Which are oftentimes maybe look like you were made to look like me, but in the middle, we still have the systems to deal with, right?
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah. And I would beg the question too maybe we just need to totally dismantle the system in a number of ways.
Ashraf Hasham
Abolish, abolish it all.
Jeff M. Poulin
And so I think it's an interesting debate to have as people, to figure out what the pathway forward is when you're dealing with systems change, because there are definitely two ends of a spectrum of just playing within the system and benefiting from whatever gains you can get or totally disrupting to the point of abolition. And knowing how to handle that is the thing that we're dealing with, I think, in this very moment in time in, you know, the middle of 2021. That is the big question. But one thing to that point that I found really interesting was Courtney cited, I believe her coach who talked about “micro-progressions,” which is a term that I know, I think we've used actually on another podcast episode to mean something different. But what she was talking about were these ways of progressing these ideals in day to day everyday scenarios, which I just so appreciate this thought, because we live in a world of microaggressions. And in these, these scenarios where we're constantly dealing with the negative impacts. So how do we flip that around? And when we can't, you know, today totally reinvent the cultural funding systems that are in place around the world, how can we make that micro aggression towards positive progressive change in what we are actually doing, during our job today?
Ashraf Hasham
It's actionable, is definitely an ideal, right. But to have a practical, something you can do about it in this moment, I think that's totally, exactly, that's exactly right. The micro-progressions, which I only heard that term with Courtney. So for me, I was like, it was, it was a little bit… I was relating for sure! But the practical solutions, the practical work around the things that can actually work into policy or into procedures work into your practices as an organization, or even in your bureaucracy, wherever you are. People want to slow down, I think people are craving a little bit of slowdown so that they can check their understanding, check their biases, maybe they don't call it that, right? But nobody wants to be canceled. I mean, let's be real. And luckily, my premonition is that we're, cancel culture is our end of days, or at least for this round, you know, as because things come back in cycles, right? So I'm hoping that this is just part of a larger conversation around how can we create spaces for people to fail and falter and, and trip up a little bit? And then that being relatively space safe? I mean, I think part of that is lovingly calling back in, and restorative practices. And folks feeling like they can continue to be in the same space and feel comfortable even messing up in the first place, which is a whole negotiation that goes on in your head. If you've ever been on social media, you know what I'm talking about.
Jeff M. Poulin
Certainly, you know, and that's a moment too, that Courtney mentioned that We Can't Go Back project that we did together. And it certainly was a learning experience that was educational in a lot of ways for those of us that were working on it for those of us that participated, really working to, to share what was happening around the world in the response to the civil uprisings that were occurring, the political unrest that was occurring, much of which was stemmed from the murders of too many people, I mean, any is too many, but the murders of black folks at the hands of police. And to see the response in the arts and cultural education community as a microcosm for what was happening nationally, around the US and frankly, globally around the world. So that project in and of itself, was something and Courtney talked about this in the interview, I just want to underscore, that was both alerting for the field as part of the documentation process, but was a learning for everyone involved internally.
Ashraf Hasham
Yeah, the vulnerability that Courtney showed in like, you know, we all have work to do, including people like Courtney, right? And her being able to articulate that and actually show that progress, I think allows all of us to to be part of it, right? Like what a generous human being, what an amazing soul to be able to have that journey with us and invite us in in such a loving way. Because there's so many folks who still don't know where to start, right? And how could you there's so many places to start. I mean, the books alone can take up many, many spaces in your bookshelf and may not get read, right? But there needs to be other ways to get involved. And for some people, and I talked with Courtney about this, too, I think it was after we stopped recording but the sense of like, a podcast that like the one that Courtney produces the one like that Creative Generation produces, these and We Can't Go Back the series too, these are essential artifacts and documents from this time. You actually can't find this sort of content anywhere. Like this is kind of pretty special content, right like for people who don't read these books or people who aren't having the pleasure of having these conversations in the workplace which are hard and traumatic and tough too. If there's another place to have them a third place, a fourth place that is on your own, it's asynchronous, it is at your, on your own terms. I mean, that's a gift, right? So, podcast of teaching artistry, something like Creative Generation’s, both research and this podcast here, We Can't Go Back series, like that is just a tunnel, a library of information to be able to access in multi modes.. Like it's just it's phenomenal to have that resource.
Jeff M. Poulin
Well, I so appreciate that. Because that is certainly the strategy that we have. A lot of the content that we are producing derives from a lot of really tough work in shifting paradigms, changing the way that we understand and how we talk and how we teach. And those are tough conversations, a lot of settings for people. And the reality is, is we have to meet people, like you said, where they are, and to provide multiple ways of engaging. Sometimes it's a hands-on learning experience. Sometimes it's reading a paper or research archive, sometimes it's listening to stories from individuals, sometimes it's viewing images. And that type of learning, I believe is what's needed, if we truly want to see systemic change throughout a sector. Because if you just publish academic papers, you're going to hit one. You just have auditory information, like a podcast, you're going to have one audience. So how do we diversify and really ensure that everyone can engage in the critical approaches that are needed? Well, that brings us to the end of our time here today. Ashraf, I really appreciate you taking the time. And thank you so much for sharing the conversation that you had with Courtney, with all of our listeners, it was really great. So as we conclude what is coming up next for you? What should our listeners be paying attention to out in the world?
Ashraf Hasham
You mentioned this earlier, but there's the sense of like resource allocation, getting money out into the world. One thing I'm thinking about right now is like, what's the way we can resource work that's already happening, say like Courtney's doing these podcasts and say that she's in the city of Seattle and say that she's doing it on her own without any funding, which I think is true, wherever she is. But how can I as a city department, with public funds, give her money to keep doing that? And like not just propose anything, in fact, maybe even that podcast interview I had was enough, right? Like an interview instead of an application. Right? So I'm thinking a lot about how, how we get money out to community that people don't ask for, but it's kind of like making it rain. In fact, we're calling it the Rainmaker Fund. So well, I'll let you know how that goes. But I want to like, I want to have like a manual, how to make it rain. For folks who are able to give out money in ways that is, like you said earlier, responsive, as a little bit more about between now and then. How about you?
Jeff M. Poulin
That's excellent. I love the name of that. That makes me laugh. And it's so appropriate. For me, I will be actually spending a little bit of time focusing on some self care. Yes, I think I've mentioned to you before, my springs are really busy. I'm on the road working with dancers, I am running Creative Generation’s work. And I teach. So the semester has come to an end, a few of our projects have come to an end, and the season is over working with dancers. So taking a little bit of rest is definitely in the cards. And then we're actually going to be kicking off our summer residency program at Creative Generation. We’ve had a wonderful pool of applicants. And we have some phenomenal young creatives and project managers that will be joining us this summer. So I'm thrilled to welcome them on board very soon, and begin our work for the summer portion of our year at Creative Generation. So lots to come and lots happening in the rest of the world. So thank you all very much for listening to today's episode of The Why Change podcast. We look forward to connecting with you again next week.
Ashraf Hasham
Peace yall, till next time.
Jeff M. Poulin
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for Creative Generation. If you would like to support this podcast aimed at amplifying the voices of creative changemakers around the world, please consider donating through the link located in the episodes show notes. These show notes contain all sources discussed in the episode. Be sure to follow, like, subscribe, and share the why change podcast to make sure you and your networks get episodes delivered directly to you and that you don't miss any stories of creative work happening around the world. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, we'd love to hear from you. You can write to us at info at Creative-generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. Our show was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Our music is by Distant Cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.
Part B
Co-host Ashraf Hasham interviews Courtney J. Boddie, who in addition to working in theater at the New Victory Theater in New York City where young children get access to performing arts education, has helmed multiple podcasts and online resources about the intersections of arts education and social change. These include her own Teaching Artistry podcast, and the We Can’t Go Back series co-created with Creative Generation.
Courtney and Ashraf dive deep into what it takes to read a room, make space for individuals in it, be generous to your community and colleagues, fight the exhaustion that often accompanies being a single voice in a crowd. Courtney shares a new term her executive development mentor taught her - micro-progressions, the small steps we take towards the bigger goals we set, that we are often very quick to move on from sans celebration.
Courtney, Ashraf, and Jeff all conclude with the idea that vulnerability is an integral part of making change and progress, and aspire to enact systems change that accommodate people’s vulnerabilities so they can be part of the social change we need, one micro-progression at a time.