During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Rachael and Jeff check in about the change of seasons and plans for the end of the year. They discuss Jeff’s interview with Dr. Jason White, Assistant Professor and Coordinator of the Arts Administration Minor in the Department of Art at Xavier University, about his new book on innovation and arts entrepreneurship. They discuss the role of applied creativity to combat racism in the arts and enabling social movements.
Please download the transcript here
In this episode you’ll learn:
About the role of arts education in facilitating conversations about racial justice;
How arts entrepreneurship can apply to social change and movement building; and
What ways arts and cultural education leaders can employ organizational attack to shift paradigms in their work.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
Jason’s book Innovation in the Arts: Concepts, Theories and Practices
Paper: “A Theory of Arts Entrepreneurship as Organizational Attack”
ABOUT DR. JASON C. WHITE:
Dr. Jason C. White is Assistant Professor and Coordinator of the Arts Administration Minor in the Department of Art at Xavier University, where he prepares students for diverse careers in arts administration. His research centers on identifying best practices for innovation, entrepreneurship and organizational management in creative and cultural industries. An accomplished researcher, educator and scholar, White is a published author in Artivate: A Journal of Entrepreneurship in the Arts, Journal of Arts Entrepreneurship Education, Journal of Arts Management, Law and Society, Innovative Higher Education, and Arts Education Policy Review. In addition, White is the author of the book Innovation in the Arts: Concepts, Theories and Practices, a Routledge publication in the Global Creative Economy series. In 2022, White received a Wallace foundation funded research fellowship managed by the Social Science Research Council to conduct and contribute to a national study on Arts Organizations of Color. White is one of the co-creators of the Undergraduate Standards for Arts Administration Education (AAAE), and a founding member of the Society for Arts Entrepreneurship Education (SAEE). Artistically, White is best known as the playwright, co-actor and co-director of the multi-award nominated and NAACP award-winning educational play, The Dance: The History of American Minstrelsy. Prior to receiving his PhD in Arts Administration, Education and Policy from The Ohio State University, White earned a BFA in Acting from The California Institute of the Arts and attended The University of Akron; obtaining both a Master’s degree in Arts Administration and a Master’s degree in Educational Assessment and Evaluation.
This episode was produced by executive producer, Jeff M. Poulin. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Creative Generation’s Digital Media Producer is Daniel Stanley. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s webpage and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC
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Jeff M. Poulin
This is Why Change? The Podcast for the Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Rivera
Hola. Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs
It's Rachel here.
Ashraf Hasham
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk
And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin
Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people, can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started.
Jeff M. Poulin
Welcome to this episode of The Why change podcast, Jeff here for this conversation about a very dear friend's work. And I am joined by my colleague and my co host here on the podcast, Rachael Jacobs. Hey, Rachael.
Rachael Jacobs
Hi, Jeff, how are you? And hello, audience especially Jacobs here on Gadigal land where sovereignty was never ceded, always was always will be Aboriginal land. And Jeff, it's so good to be on here having this conversation about this great interview
Jeff M. Poulin
As you know, listeners, it's very funny. We were just catching up very briefly and realized that we're actually having a conversation about this episode before actually hitting record. So it is good to be with you. And it is really wonderful, Rachel, to be in this online community with you today to talk about something that I think we're both really passionate about just judging by our initial reactions to the topic. But before we get into that, tell me what's going on in your world. What's the latest, what's got what's happening.
Rachael Jacobs
It's a pretty exciting time actually over here, change of seasons, always an exciting time. For me personally it is coming up to Diwali. So I'm an Indian Australian. So my heritage tells me that I need to be celebrating really hard right now. And so Diwali is a massive celebration of light. And I run an Indian Dance Company, which means first and foremost, we are booked solidly. If you ever need me, Jeff or anyone, just look for me on a dance floor or just follow the music, follow the beats and you'll find me there. It's quite exhausting. But my God is joyful as well. Diwali is as I mentioned, the celebration of light. And I just like to add, I guess that you know, the mantra of Diwali for all of our listeners is that Diwali celebrates the triumph of good over evil, light over darkness and of knowledge over ignorance. So wishing you all a Happy Diwali and dance hard everyone.
Jeff M. Poulin
Well, thank you for that, Rachel. I certainly appreciate that having lived and worked in a number of contexts involving in the others I've been to my fair share of Diwali celebrations. It also coincides with a personal celebration of my birthday coming up. So I am super excited about that. But as always, my line of work is consumed by a lot of work travel. As you know, the month of October is busy when it comes to arts education work. It's in that sweet spot I think between like the, the start, excuse me, the start of the academic semester, and the scheduled breaks around the holidays and end of year and things like that. And so it ends up being this crazy time. So I've had the really distinct pleasure of celebrating my birthday with work colleagues in cities all across the globe over the years, and this year will be no different. I will actually be on site kicking off my birthday with a 6am flight, but a flight to get home. So it will be nice to also spend time with friends and family. But I agree it's also the change of seasons. Here we're entering the fall months. The weather has changed, the leaves are beginning to change and it gives us a sort of new sense of renewal and I'm just so excited especially because so much of the work that we're doing is on the road. The reason for many of these work trips in the month really actually aligned to the ethos of the Diwali celebration it's about renewing its rejuvenation with arts educators in order to center well being bridge connections and to really drive change which is just so exciting and very inspiring. I always end the month tired from travel but very inspired by the people who I'm spending that time with
Rachael Jacobs
well and Jeff you've got a birthday in the middle of it and getting up early on your birthday just means more time to celebrate so wishing you light and love on your birthday as well. You know one of the I guess the unofficial you know sort of lessons of Diwali is to follow the light so, so yeah follow the light everyone. Jeff mod I add in here The interview that we're about to hear just a bit of a trigger warning as well, that some of the content, I personally felt it was pretty dark. This one crept up on me because of the joy that Jason communicates with. But there is some dark content there. So just a content warning for our listeners that we do discuss blackface. We do discuss minstrel shows. So if that causes any issues for you, that's just something to be aware of.
Jeff M. Poulin
Great, thanks for that, Rachel. Let's give it a listen and come back on the flip side. Welcome, Jason, I am so thrilled to introduce you to the wide change podcast. You know, we first met some many years ago, I think, almost a decade at this point, when we were both fresh professionals in the arts and arts education worlds. And I believe that you were either about to get your doctorate, or you were completing your doctoral research at the time, and I was new working on the scene and public policy in DC. And, you know, here we are 10 years later, both doing our things and remaining connected, which I think is such a joy in life. So it's a pleasure to have you here in your role now as a professor of arts management, doing some really great stuff at Xavier University, and, you know, here to share some of your knowledge with folks on the podcast. So welcome.
Jason White
Thank you so much. Yes, definitely birds of a feather flock together, man, we've known each other for quite some time. So I'm really proud. And first of all, proud of your success, the things you've accomplished. And you know, you've been watching me, I've been watching you, you know, it really is a case of iron sharpening iron here. So I'm pleased and proud to call you friend number one. And also to have you as a colleague in my life, there have been times I know, over the course of the last 10 years, it's been that long, right? So that, um, you know, I've emailed you also asked you for some some tidbits of advice, and just kind of generally just been following your trajectory, and just the impact you've made on the field of arts administration, and specifically arts education, too, which is a passion of mine as well, mutual passion of ours for for certain. So I'm happy to be here. I wanted to actually do this for a very long time with you. Our schedules are kind of crazy right now, but very, very pleased to be on this podcast, my friend. Well,
Jeff M. Poulin
Thank you. And likewise, right back at you, you know, the one thing I sort of left out of that introduction is that I am a little bit of a super fan of your work, your book just came out. And I think I was like purchaser number two. So I Please excuse the slight obsession. But it is really great to be here. So before we get into anything about your current work, or even past work, let's go way back in time, I would love to get your story. How did you begin your journey in the arts? What led you to become a scholar and a professor of arts administration?
Jason White
Sure, I know we have a limited amount of time, because that would take about 10 hours. But I'm gonna try to drill this down into five minutes if I can. You know, what's interesting is, gosh, I've been so blessed for my entire career just to have a lifelong life, I would say lifelong introduction, but also just a lifelong experience in the arts. My experience with arts education, it really is where it has to start. I was born and raised in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I was very privileged to attend the school for Creative and Performing Arts. It's an it's our, essentially our performing arts high school here in Cincinnati, Ohio. It's been in existence for a very, very long time. It still exists today, downtown in Cincinnati, and I am an enema. And excuse me, I am an alum of that institution and just being able to come from a small, you know, community in Kennedy Heights, where, you know, there were not at the time, a lot of arts experiences available. We didn't have any arts organizations and communities or anything. You have to go all the way downtown to even have exposure to those. But you know, I was blessed because I was accepted by audition into the school and from fourth to 12th grade pretty much was training in acting Dance Theater. Visual Art, although I'm not a visual artist, at least they gave me a shot. You know, I had access to ballet training, I had access to musical theater training, I'd have access to you know, not only classical music forms, but also jazz education. You know, it's really like it's what we want every student in America to have, you know, an experience growing up with the arts ingrained into every single day of their instruction. And we know from statistics, like that's really challenging to do. We know from, you know, Policy Studies, you know, that's also really challenging sometimes to fund and integrate into Every sort of high school system, but I had the pleasure of actually doing that. So my career pretty much starts there. I mean, I'm talking, I was in the fourth grade doing goodness, my first play was like our town. I was Wally Webb. And then I remember I had a pretty life changing experience when I auditioned for the Wiz and got cut as a munchkin. And I was mad about that, like, how are you gonna cut me. And it lit a fire in me, man. And I was like, Ah, I will never get cut again. And sure enough, man, it just sent me into overdrive. And the very next year they came along, I was cast as the lead and Oliver. And I was Oliver, you know, and I was able to actually, for the first time, you know, fifth or sixth grade, I think, performing the Taft theater downtown in Cincinnati, Ohio, who gets that until, you know, fifth sixth grade, you know, I'm performing in a professional venue, going backstage, I'm watching how the techies are doing their work. I'm watching this community. You know, and this is the thing that maybe reiterated, reiterated over this conversation, I'm watching this community building, this group of people who did not know each other come together to create this beautiful thing we call art we call theater, we call music, you know, we call it dance. And it's really about that, you know, like that, that little fire in me and I have not wanted to disassociate myself from those experiences since then, you know, I love the artistic community, not only here in Cincinnati, but also my academic artistic community to which I'll get to a little bit later on. But, you know, my journey really starts there, my passion for the arts really starts there to fast forward a little bit. You know, I graduate and I go to the California Institute of the Arts, I get accepted to pursue a BFA in acting. And I'll talk a little bit about this too. Because I like the fact that during these podcasts, too, we can get a little real, right?
Jeff M. Poulin
Especially here on why change,
Jason White
there you go, right. So you know, I'm one of those people who, you know, auditioned for a very prestigious school, some you know, and, of course, got accepted. I was very excited. Of course, everybody in Cincinnati is very proud of me. You know, my mom's very proud of me, my family's very proud of me, my friends, very proud of me to those who get that opportunity, right, come to SCP, come from SEPA graduates and go right into what many people call one of the greatest arts institutions. For higher education, it's in Santa Clara, California. So I go up, I get accepted, I make it go through and start going through a very, very heavy sort of conservatory style of arts education. You know, for the most part, for four years, the emphasis is on practice, practice, practice, practice, you know, we're acting. And then we're taking supplemental courses to kind of train us in breathing techniques, voice training, we also took Tai Chi to, you know, things that will help you understand your body, use your body as a living instrument take care of your body to for the most part, I love that that aspect is great, but also have some really life changing experiences that are not so positive. For example, at the time, when I was at CalArts, they would invite a lot of guest directors, and a lot of those guest directors would, for the most part, have complete control over whatever they wanted to do with really little oversight. And so I started to see things and also, for a period of time kind of feel, quite honestly a little exploited. You know, and there are things that are happening in the shows that artists that the directors, guest directors are telling us to do that I'm not, I'm not really cool with. And a lot of my friends actually kind of feel the same way. But there was kind of this emphasis at CalArts at the time, that you would, you know, you know, are you sold out, you know, are you are you all in for this type of career, you know, what I mean in and I understand it kind of, you know, you know, directors wanting to kind of mold actors and the account of training in a certain way, but there comes a point in time to where, you know, you have to be sensitive to where actors and artists are at. And, and, you know, to an extent, I kind of felt that a lot of times, I compromised my own morals, for the sake of somebody else's vision. I did things in shows that I wasn't comfortable with, I saw things in shows that I didn't talk about. I didn't intervene, you know what I mean, in a sense, I was silent on it. You know, I saw things happening that I didn't go to anybody, I didn't even I didn't really even know who to go to, you know, I mean, it was kind of a culture at the time. Um, you know, maybe embedded not outright but kind of a culture of silence. of hey, if you say something, you know, you're not with you're not all in, you know what I mean? And you're not willing to kind of let go in and, and allow impulse to kind of take over. So, you know, I had some pretty uncomfortable experiences that kind of started me on this path to exploring the concept of exploitation as an artist. And this will definitely feed into the dance. That's where I'm going with this a little bit later. I also learned after graduating from CalArts, a couple of things. This actually fits into the marks administration, education and kind of my pursuit. I recognized that when I graduated from CalArts, I'm in it for four years. And I don't know how to make a budget. I don't know how to read a contract. Also identify as an African American male, and I'm going into an industry, Hollywood, which is about 3045 minutes away, you know, down the highway, from Santa Cruz, California, I'm going into an industry I barely understand, because I've been for the most part training on a hill and a conservatory style of education, um, that that did not actually want you to go audition, that, you know, like, kind of really, you know, didn't advise it more. So advise you to stay on the hill and practice. So you know, I'm graduating and I'm recognizing man, I'm deficient in a lot of these skills, that you really need to succeed as an artist, you know, 90% of the work is not the performance it's getting to perform it is getting the opportunity to perform, you know, what I mean, and a lot of practicing artists get that, you know, this is a business.
Jason White
And if you want to get into the business of acting, film production, you know, even directing and such to, you know, if you want to get into specifically entertainment business, you need to understand the reality of that atmosphere. Also, there's a lot of people in Hollywood that aren't in your best interest. You know, it may seem like it, but they're not. So, you know, being able to know, hey, these are people I shouldn't be hanging around. And these are probably people I should not be hanging around to. Okay, so I'm recognizing, as I'm leaving CalArts, and I'm thinking I'm prepared, right, I'm thinking this program prepared me for this lifestyle, and I'm recognizing he totally did not. And so, you know, I have a bit of an epiphany there where I'm like, well, we'll shoot, I mean, it's kind of sink or swim. I'm out here in LA, I'm pursuing my passion, you know, where am I going to learn these skills? You know, I didn't even know how to write a grant. I didn't, I didn't know what I didn't really know what an arts organization was, so to speak, you know, so, you know, it was really a time of kind of, I think my first step into what many are calling arts, entrepreneurship, but also arts administration, too. And for the most part, I like to say I was self taught, because I had to, I used to go to Barnes and Noble, you know, and like just pull books off the shelf and read them and not pay for him. Just read them. They didn't walk out. You know, like, how do you make a website? Hey, oh, hey, you know, how do I contract law, you know, business law, entertainment law, I pulled the books, man, I just read and read and read and read and read and all the time, I'm trying to do odd gigs, to keep the creative drive going, you know, further and further and further. So it's a challenge at time when I think back on it, but it leads me to explore, you know, themes of exploitation, specifically as a black male in an industry that I felt unprepared for at the time. And this is no dig against CalArts. Now, you know, I don't know what's going on in the institution now, but I do feel it's important to kind of share that story. Because, hey, it's really the story. A lot of people, you know, have come out of conservatory arts institutions, you know, so, this is not an unusual innocence. And, you know, I count myself as one of the people who kind of had those sorts of experiences. But, you know, moving on, you know, I start to think about, you know, how to express this, this feeling I have of exploitation, how do I how do I communicate this because it's in there, and it's, you know, it's boiling up, and I gravitate towards the library. And I remember actually, you know, a friend of mine, suggesting I look into blackface minstrelsy as a way of exploring that concept in that topic. I know what blackface was, and have no idea what that was. That is blackface, which is telling you in its own right, I'm graduating you know, in the year 2004. And I have no idea what blackface is. That's problem number one. If I don't know this history, you know, what is the minstrel show? What is blackface minstrelsy, what's the history of the past of this? And how does it reflect that the president sends me on a journey to explore so much that I start reading and researching about this very important part of American history that's rarely talked about in schools, rarely talked about at dinner tables, you know, for various reasons. And I started watching the films like you know, I remember watching the Birth of a Nation one of the most prolific films that kind of, you know, furthers the struggle of black culture projection in the space I start looking into early black entertainers in the theater industry like Bert Williams and George Walker. I started learning about the introduction of our film industry and how blackface entertainment was really introduced as soon as the film industry was created. I have research on it and citations on that, too. It's like, I start realizing there's over 100 years of history here, that's really contributed to the way that we see ourselves, not only in media and entertainment, but just in American life in general. You know, it's like, where did these stereotypes come from? You know, at the time, I think a lot of the stereotypes you would see on TV would be like the black thug, you saw, like, this is the gangster rap era in 1990s, to kind of carries over, but you'd see a lot of that kind of stereotype played over and over and over. You would also see black women in stereotypical roles, but you will also see other people of color and stereotypical roles too. So I really thought to myself, like, you know, wow, this kind of resonates with my experience at CalArts being exploited.
Jason White
And a sense of being missed is realized. But this is something that's happened in American history. So believing that I'm backpedaling a bit, but by last year of CalArts, 2004, rather than do one of their shows I petitioned out of the show to create this piece called the dance the history of American minstrelsy. And I said, you know, hey, I've done this work for three years, you know, I feel like exploring this would be a great kind of thesis, and capstone for me, rather than the one that you've set up for me. And with some support, actually, from Travis Preston, who was then the director, actually, I think he was the director of performance. If I'm not mistaken, I was able to mount the show for the first time. So you know, here I am, 2004. And I'm creating the show for the first time my own show, which is a two man show that actually teaches people about blackface minstrelsy, and blackface entertainment, but uniquely it does it as to blackface minstrel clowns who teach you about this history. So it's kind of like a minstrel show. But it's teaching you all the facts about menstruation and the history of American minstrelsy. So what we do is a lot of times in the show, it was me and my friend, Aaron white, you know, we're kind of like a suitcase show. We're like, on stage man, and you basically just see us, you know, front and center for the whole experience. And we got two suitcases on the side of us. And we're pulling props out and we're, we're going through tambling bones routines, and we're teaching you over 100 years of history of the minstrel show experience in one hour. And this is a power packed hour man, like, you know, cash, I remember actually first doing the show, at Lamar Park, Los Angeles, and having a white family of four come up to me and say, Thank you for doing this. We never knew about it. I mean, that was so awesome. We talked about blackface. And it's like, you know, how do you do a Blackface show? In the middle of, you know, Lamar Park, Los Angeles, and you have white people in the audience, black people in the audience, you know, you have people of Asian descent, we have people of all walks of life in the audience. How do you create something in which is non threatening, but like, allows everybody to come together to have a conversation about the piece? I knew I had some?
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, I know. And that's, that brings me to a really specific reflection that I have about one of our many intersections over the years, which I think was in Madison, Wisconsin, if I'm correct, yeah, conference, about arts administration, where you were sharing some of this work, and, in particular, sharing pieces of the exact same story that you just shared now, but really about how you were able to leverage that like fire within you both as a creative change maker as a as a young young person, to now an arts administrator that is able to offer a critique on the same arts education that brought many of us up in the world, and move the field forward, but in a different direction. In one that's maybe a little bit more in line with your values. And, you know, that's really where I was like, okay, like, this guy is definitely on to something. And perhaps this change this realignment with our values and critique of the field is something that all of us need to talk about. And in fact, I would say, like you said, before, birds of a feather, right? They were on a similar journey, because I was offering a paper on research that kind of concluded the same thing. And here we are now talking about this today. So you've described a little bit about that project, but you carried it forward. So We'll talk a little bit about how, as an arts administrator, you are able to elevate the ideas from that initiative as as a young creative and then as a, you know, professional actor, and actually impact the world of arts education, or perhaps set a new vision for the world of arts education that we should all know about.
Jason White
I think what's been great is how many fields this piece has touched over the past 10 years, you know, I've been able to tour this piece to various colleges across the country, and also give presentations at conferences, one amongst the courses, the AAA conference, I think you've mentioned in arts Administrators Association for arts administration Educators Conference, where I presented this work as a program that can be integrated into arts administration, education programs, also arts education programs, art education programs, there's so many utilities for education on this topic, because I think it just touches so many facets of life. For example, in arts administration, we know that historically, we've been talking about, you know, white lit arts institutions and organizations for umpteen years. You know, the field is really heavily invested in changing the narrative, and really including people of color into that discussion about funding and also leadership and also curriculum as well, what should be included and not included? And how do we have that, that discourse in a respectful way. So I often find that those who are arts administration educators who want to integrate the dance into their curriculum, they're looking at this, of course, as a helpful diversity initiative. Certainly, it's a checkbox, but it goes much deeper than that, because through this type of work, students are looking at this and going number one, just like I was, whoa, this existed number one. So just on a, on a human level, you know, what I mean, just as an American to you should just know that this actually happened. And then secondly, you know, because I know I am aware of the socio-cultural effects of blackface images. How does that change how I program in these organizations and institutions? How does that change? How do I manage in these institutions? How does that change how I relate to communities who have been marginalized, and minister lies in these communities for umpteen years, too. So I think this awareness really changes the field and changes the game, because it just makes you a much more well rounded and aware arts administrator. So when you don't have to step into so many of these potholes with people who don't know this even existed, for example, he was like, you know, we know people for years have been doing shows like Madame Butterfly, which is like, it's pretty controversial now, probably wouldn't back then. But now people are like, Yo, is this cool? Should we be doing this? You know, should we still be doing this sort of content and 2022? Or if we do it, you know, how can we do it responsibly, you know, educating yourself on blackface minstrelsy helps you to, to figure that out, you know, you come in with an informed opinion, because you know, what happened. And you also know, the danger of kind of not looking at these images in a critical way. Yeah. And so I think a lot of people have found value in that sort of work. But it's so interesting that a lot of my initial arts administration training goes back to those experiences really just on the ground, trying to teach people about this work, without the tools and skills that I needed to do so. And along the way, picking these things up. I mean, it kind of mirrors a lot of arts administrators, right, we come from a lot of different fields, we pick up things along the way, and then we're very flexible and adaptable to change, because, you know, it's a lot hitting us at once. And then, you know, we wear so many different hats. So in the same way, you know, when I got to Ohio State University, where I started to kind of formally, you know, explore not only this topic, arts administration, arts education, kind of the intersections of it, I had already had, you know, 10 years of experience, you know, in the game in the field trying to do this, you know, with production and, and fundraising and negotiations and contracts and stuff, the business side right of art and culture. So I felt kind of very prepared, post graduation at Ohio State, adapting this piece into what it is today. Now, I don't know if you want me to talk a little about that, too. Because this piece is still with us. You know, I've retired from actually
Jason White
acting in it, that's done. But it's actually morphed into a much better iteration that that actually would love to talk to you about. So what I did was I a couple of years ago, when I was at the College of Charleston teaching in their arts management program. I recorded a project auction with me and Aaron, and I chopped it up. And I've actually made it into an online asynchronous course. And this has fundamentally changed the nature of the work. But also, I think it's made it so much better, much more accessible, because now it's literally an online course that has those elements in the show that students can actually see and reflect on. You know, and it can be integrated into any course. This is a three hour asynchronous course, you get a certificate at the end, it's auto generated. But you're really watching the dance, which is why it's called see the dance, you're actually seeing the dance play out right in front of you, you're connecting this to citations and historical sources, you're seeing the images that were used during the time period. And you're being asked, when you're when you're taking this course, to reflect critically on the images, the history and make juxtapositions for like, how, you know, make connections to how you know, the past day images are still influencing our opinions and our perceptions of people of color today, so it's become a much more effective tool for diversity educators, for higher education administrators, and certainly for educators, arts administration, arts education, too. And I'm proud to say that Ilan University, actually in North Carolina, just signed up for an account. So over 500 students actually will be seeing the dance this coming October. I couldn't be happier about this piece.
Jeff M. Poulin
That's great, you know, and the thread that I want to pull out from that story is the critical eye that you have towards the driving of change, right, like, how do we systemically actually tackle this, right? Because I feel like when we talk about change on this podcast, there's certainly one group of people that maybe subscribe to like the, just burn it to the ground, or, you know, or throw it all away. And I think what I'm hearing from you is, there's a rich, rich cultural history that comes with arts and culture in our sector. But that also really underpins arts education. And there are things that are really good about that. And there are things that are really, really bad about that. And so how do we harness that history, for good or bad, you know, or from good or bad, in order to drive the change that we want to see. And that's the thing about your work that equally blows my mind. And I have tremendous respect for because what I've watched you do from a distance, is take those concepts and practices and now theories and sort of author those into something that can drive the next generation of practitioners be they arts, education practitioners, creatives, artists, arts administrators, or what have you. And I know some of your early work we cite at Creative Generation all the time. So for any listener, who's been through any professional development, you've certainly seen the footnotes leading to Jason's work. But I'd love for you to help all of our listeners enhance our own vocabulary. So can you break down some of these, like key ideas in the world of innovation in the arts and arts entrepreneurship? What does this all mean, in the theoretical side?
Jason White
Sure, yeah. And first of all, I appreciate those kinds of words. Jeff, you know, oftentimes, as an artist, sometimes you think you're just talking to the wall, and you're crazy. But then you know, every now and then you'll do some work that has so much as meaning and then leads to meaningful change. You might even call it innovation, right, sustain meaningful change. That's one concept of innovation. There are other concepts of innovation to talk about in my new book innovation in the arts concepts, theories and practices, that I was able to kind of glean from the innovation literature. Joseph Schumpeter, you know, came up with an interesting definition of that as well. There have been others in the business literature who have come up with other definitions. The one I kind of set it on for this book, was really a process based definition of innovation, because to me, innovation is a process. It's also an outcome, but I chose to explore it as a process because I think if we understand the systematic process of it, then it's repeatable. It's, you know, it's something that may or may sometimes be step by step, but something also whereby you may need to do step one and five at the same time right now. But, it's a process and I think you can teach the process. So I think it helps people to understand, you know, when, when you're talking about innovation from like a process based viewpoint of it, I tend to think about it in this book, specifically, as, like, three different distinct processes that kind of collaborate and combined, so to speak, to give you this outcome, which is innovation. The first one I want to talk about right now is Introduction. You might even say reintroduction, but we'll get to that. A lot of scholars and innovation literature's think of innovation as the introduction of something new, that could be a product, a process could also be an experience. But it's certainly something new to a market, you know, if we're gonna go full business mode. So, if you think about it, it really isn't what some people think of as the creation of something new. A lot of people, you know, they say, are creating something new? Well, it doesn't necessarily have to do anything with creation. Because if you introduce something new to you, someone and they find it as valuable, you know, you didn't really didn't create it, you just knew about it, and you introduced it to them, and it's new to them. So, you know, I like to think about it as the introduction or the reintroduction of something new, because you might be, you might have tried to introduce it, but you know, it didn't catch on. So maybe you're reintroducing it in a new way right now, right. So I find this to be a much better part of the process or way to explain the process in the context of the arts. Because we all introduce new art forms all the time, we introduce new products in the arts, we introduce new services in the arts, new experiences in the arts all the time, and a lot of times we reintroduce it maybe in a new way. Okay. So I like to think about that first part as, as a component of innovation, the reintroduction of a new process, product or experience. Next one I want to talk about is diffusion. Talking about this in my book, too, that's a huge part of an innovation process. diffusion, you might want to think of not necessarily as marketing, but really getting people to spread the word within their social networks. So marketing is one aspect, right? Well, marketing essentially is continually communicating, you know, the product, the service, or experience, over time continually communicating it, but this goes deeper than communication, this is about getting people to care about it, enough to tell other people, and enough of them to tell other people to write. So it's deeper than marketing certainly involves marketing, but diffusion is much deeper than that. And then the last part of innovation is adoption, people forget totally about this.
Jason White
Okay, just because you have introduced something new, you have diffused it amongst the social networks does not mean that it will be adopted, in a sense, utilized or, you know, confirmed or even endorsed, as I talk about in this book, in my theory of art innovation. I'll give you an example. You know, when cubism came in on the scene, you know, Pablo, Picasso and others to the you know, do you think everybody was like, really, really happy with this new art form? No, he faced great resistance to, to this type of work to this new style of work to but over time, you know, through a lot of help, actually, that that he and others had, this new medium was diffused amongst artists, it was seen as meaningful. It was seen as a new lens, a new way to see life, a new way to see the world through, no pun intended, different angles, different perspectives. And it was adopted by institutions as a form of art, you know, it was institutionalized, it's funded, you know, it's it's ingrained into to the academy, they're teaching it now, you know, also signs of kind of adoption, by way of endorsements, social endorsement or institutional endorsement, too. So I'm glad you mentioned this, because, you know, there's a whole chapter dedicated to helping artists and arts administrators understand how the business world thinks about innovation, and then pulling from the Art History literature to help the business world understand how artists and arts administrators think about innovation. Right? So it's a really awesome book that is very useful for translation on both sides. That I think leads to just a new way for all of us to actually collaboratively think about innovation in the arts or otherwise.
Jeff M. Poulin
You know, and it's, it's that cross pollination, if you will, that I've really always found intriguing about this, I think, from your very first paper back in the day on the topic through to the publication of this book, because I would argue that there's sort of the the innovation literature, the arts literature, and intersecting with both of those things is this idea of change or social change, or a justice orientation, which is a lot of what we talk about here on the white change podcast. And I think the concepts you're outlining certainly apply to art movements, say like cubism, also apply to organizational movements like power sharing, and also to social movements like the vast array of efforts to remove statues of problematic people and turn them into monuments towards social justice. And so talk to me a little bit about movement building, and what we can learn from some of this work in the arts or the business or the innovation sector, and apply that to this Creative Social Change work.
Jason White
Oh, this is great. Because, you know, a couple of years ago, I wouldn't have been able to answer this question. But now we have a formal theory that actually explains this process. We're talking about art movements, which oftentimes can also be social movements, you know, you might even say some of them are and social movements, for example, the Black Arts Movement was both an art and social movement, right. You know, and I rationalized this a lot in my book to, you know, really give people the citations, the facts, and also the references and art history literature, to make sense of these topics. But I like to think of art movement as a form of innovation and art movement as a form of innovation, or the introduction, diffusion, and widespread acceptance of a guiding ideology for a new art movement. You know, that's really the piece I want people to focus on, when I think about making new art movements in 2022, you know, is the guiding ideology, this is the reason people get involved in the first place. You know, this isn't something that's cool, you know, for the moment when an art movement requires a significant amount of, not only participation, but commitment. You know, you want people to be committed to the movement, because in any art movement, people are going to be sharing resources, ideas, connections, a lot of networking goals in art movements, but it's really a it's a collaborative social movement, whereby all participants decide to move in a certain direction, or to pursue, you know, an art form of the creation of an art form. But they're doing this based on a guiding ideology. And so if I'm an art movement innovator, that's the first thing I want to do. I want to create it and really like, kind of get some sense of, you know, how can I easily communicate this guiding ideology? In other words, the reason for the movement's existence? Why are we doing this in the first place? What, what, what benefit might this be to the artists in my community or to the participants as well, which could include non artists, right, you have a lot of those participants in art movements, too. So, you know, I really like to think about that, because when I think of the outcome of a new art movement, innovation, I'm thinking about it as the formation of a collective collective artistic identity. In an art world, along with new communal and associative relationships between members of the art movement, this is really a community building thing. You know, and it won't last, unless you have people willing to buy into the guiding ideology of the movement. In other words, you can name a movement, like, you know, I hate to say cubism, again. Let's actually go to the, the, the other another form, you could say, like constructivism, or like Russian constructivism, as well. You know, here you have a movement that people start participating in, because they all want to create art in a certain way. They find that process valuable and meaningful, but they're also looking for a community, you know, who thinks about art, like me, you know, who finds this perspective valuable and meaningful, and who is willing to support me while I do this, you know, this is community. And there's tons of art movements referenced in the art history literature, which is why like a large part of this book, I'm referencing art history, because I'm like, you know, we haven't been looking at, at, at it. When we think of innovation, we often don't look at the art history literature, but like so many of these, these movements have happened. And if we understand what an innovation is, from a process perspective, then it's a lot easier to recognize a lot of what's happened in art history, as innovative or as innovations, and certainly aren't movements are a form of social innovation. So I love that question. You know, it's really cool to not only, you know, put some pie in the sky out there, but actually not have a book that says, No, this is actually a real thing that we just haven't been paying attention to. And also, here are some steps to actually how you can do this in 2022 and beyond. And also, here are some case studies you can learn from from people who have done it.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah. There's one other term that emerges in your work that I find fascinating, and I think will be of particular interest to those who find themselves in organizational leadership roles. You know, this, one of the papers, talks about organizational attack, which is just a term that I love. So, break that one down for us and how that might apply to leaders of arts and cultural education organizations, initiatives, projects, what happened?
Jason White
Sure if and you might want to call my friend quantities fluid on this one, because she's done this more, most recently, a lot of times,
Jeff M. Poulin
and she's been a guest on this podcast with the title effing Shut up, I believe was the title of the podcast. So I think that might be an indicator for this. This modality.
Jason White
case study number one quantities, Floyd, right. Um, no, you know, this is this is a concept I think I was playing around with and just trying to kind of develop a way to, to communicate how innovators again, social innovators, can go in and change the sorts of entrenched the system's cultural systems that have not, you know, wanted to change for hundreds and hundreds of yours. It's almost like we talk about change, but I want to actually be able to describe how that change happens. And so one concept I was thinking about is this, this, this idea of organizational attack, which is actually not my concept that's actually comes from how it Becker, who explored this in his book, art worlds, He only talks about it for a little bit, but it was enough to kind of help me make connections to social innovation, that literature, as well as just arts administration, in general, because a lot of us are right now working in the field to kind of change a lot of the deeply entrenched ways. And, you know, in which we, we, we produce art as well, but also, a lot of support structures have to change. Because, you know, in a sense, it's kind of like, it's kind of like teaching to the test, right? Like, we know, this is not the best way to do this for our students, but, you know, we make money and the system is set up. So it is what it is. So, you know, until you actually just learned to dismantle the support structures, it's gonna be hard to change anything, because, you know, in a sense, there's a lot of the support structures are fighting against a change, you know, in a sense, changing that may lead to, you know, people's livelihood, going in a different direction, people losing jobs and stuff, you know, so like, That's why even though, you know, there's a better way, a lot of times people are resistant to change, even though they know that if we go this way, it'll actually be better for everybody. So, you know, the idea of organizational attack, it's just that, you know, it's going in and thinking critically about how to disrupt, dismantle, and reorganize a lot of the structures that we've created in the arts and cultural sector. So I'll give you an example about that, you know, everybody right now is talking about changes in philanthropy, in the arts, right? We know from, from a lot of studies that have recently come out that essentially, we've got this small percentage of arts and culture organizations who make like, I think over a million or more in budgets, annual annual budget size, they get most of the private and public funding that's geared toward the arts every year. And then you got this large, large, you know, other population, which is essentially you can think of this as arts organizations, which have budgets under 1 million. And by the way, a lot of these are down the street from your house, who are asking for, you know, this funding who have direct impact in these communities, you know, and these communities are shifting to they're changing, these are the people who can make the change right there. They're embedded in a lot of these communities, too. And they're asking for equitable funding, and not getting it. Why because we have a support structure that's set up to maintain the status quo. And so, you know, the theory of organizational attack, you know, hopefully will help you go, well shoot, like, we don't, how do I analyze the structure, you know, who's in charge of certain aspects of the structure? And then what do I need to do to actually start to dismantle that structure, so that actual change can actually happen. And so it's kind of a really good way to think about strategies for change in the arts and cultural sector, certainly in the nonprofit sector, but also in the for profit, arts and cultural sector as well, or sectors as well. Because we certainly know even in the US entertainment industry, for example, we have a lot of the same support structures, and a lot of these people, you know, are really dependent upon that structure not changing for their livelihood, too.
Jeff M. Poulin
Right. You know, I think anyone who knows me well now understands why I am slightly obsessed with all of your work because it gives me the vocabulary to talk about. So many of the projects that we work on at Creative Generation and the ideologies that we follow. And, you know, the really the positive, forward thinking and hopeful nature in which you describe this, I do think, right, like, I just do want to recognize that there is a threat to a lot of people, when we talk about these types of changes, absolutely, there is a negative perception, a lot of times when it does come to innovation, be it the response to cubism, or the undercutting of the nonprofit industrial complex in the arts that has perpetuated the careers of many for decades. And so I think that having that positive, progressive forward thinking, hopeful outlook, about the future, and how to harness these methods, and theories and concepts, towards the future, to drive change is really what we're all about here on the yth podcast. So I really, thank you for sharing all of this in our conversation today. And hopefully, we can perpetuate it towards the future. And yes,
Jason White
yeah, I just want to touch on that real quick. First of all, yeah, I appreciate you recognizing that too, you know, because innovation can go both ways, right? Like, and not everything needs to change, you know, sometimes, you know, innovators will come in and try to change what's actually working out really well. So again, you know, this idea of organizational attack may actually be a counter to somebody trying to come in and change something that I don't, my intention is to give arts educators, art educators, artists, policymakers, arts administrators, the tools that we need in 2022, to do the work. Now, if that work for you is organizational change, I certainly think that not only my book, innovation in the arts will be helpful to you. But also, the article you referenced, Jeff, on organizational attack will be helpful to you as well. You know, it really is, it's high time we started educating everybody on processes, rather than, you know, our processes of change, rather than sustaining the status quo. And so a lot of my work has endeavored to, to kind of add to the literature, so people, you know, will have the resources to be able to do that. And as you reference the language to communicate, you know, so that we understand each other well, we also collaborate in that process as well. So yeah, thank you so much for that, too, I definitely want to reference that because, um, you know, there's a tension between innovation and preservation, right. So we definitely want to recognize that as well.
Jeff M. Poulin
And we'll drop all of the links to all of those wonderful articles, books and resources in the show notes as well. So Jason, as we come to the close of our time together, and as we get to know people all around the world, we're really interested in, you know, what keeps folks tick in doing the hard work like that, that you are doing? So we have a series of five very quick sequenced questions that I would love to ask you for your immediate response. Are you ready? Absolutely. Who inspires you?
Jason White
Man, I know it's supposed to be quick, but you hit me, Jeff. Okay, my wife, my daughter, and without question, the Lord Jesus Christ, His example. What he did was love for people. His sacrifice, just to be able to emulate my life in some small way to him and his walk, that gives me pleasure every single day in my life. What keeps you motivated? Oh, I have to say, I hope I'm pretty optimistic. And I feel like I have to be, you know, we often see so much negativity on television, in the media and in the news as well. But when I teach, you know, I'm able to actually see and meet new leaders not only in the arts, but also you know, these people are going to be going into positions of power as well. And I just love being able to, to meet new students, to have conversations with them, to get to know how they think about life that really motivates me to continue teaching as well. But also to be a mentor to those who are walking down similar paths that I've walked into, and to be able to tell them where the potholes are and like teach them how to step over those potholes as well that's a really motivating piece of of my life that kind of drives why I do and the ways in which I think about the world in general.
Jeff M. Poulin
Where are you most grounded?
Jason White
Oh, man, that is so okay. Where am I most grounded? Okay, I gotta go back to the Word of God man that that's the foundation for me man is I find so much value in the principles and teachings of Jesus Jesus Christ, I don't think I would even be here without having a deep relationship with with both him but also a knowledge of the teachings in the scriptures as well as really, really kept me grounded, certainly in times where I felt off balance. And also, I'm inadequate in certain settings as well. I am daily reminded of who I am through his work.
Jeff M. Poulin
How do you stay focused?
Jason White
Oh, man, do I stay focused? That's the question. I try to practice self care. It's new for me. I've done a lot over the past 10 years. But I think my wife keeps me focused as well. I mean, there's nothing that could keep you more focused than a child, right? Like having being a new father would just change everything, man, because you know, you go out and you do all this stuff. And you create all this content, and you give presentations and you come home and you have just a, you haven't you have a child that's like, feed me, I don't care about you that beat me. So, you know, it really just makes you appreciate family, I think it makes you appreciate what's most important. And it also helps me to prioritize, and in that way, I think focused on what I need to do to fulfill my goals and my objectives, but also like keeping it imbalanced. So I'm really, really thankful for that every day as well. I certainly say though, the combination of those things helped keep me balanced, and focused. Yeah.
Jeff M. Poulin
And lastly, why change? Say that? Why change?
Jason White
Why change? I think that's a great question. Most of my work, focuses on process, but you know, it, you know, if you got to do this type of deep, deeply, retrospective, deeply involved highly committed work, you need to be able to answer that question. So, I think that's something we all need to consider. Because, you know, oftentimes theY can get lost in all of the process, too, right? So being able to, to articulate that answer and remind yourself why you're doing this in the first place will definitely keep you going. In times where you meet a lot of resistance, or things just aren't going right. You know, having that why front and center, I think is motivating for you, but also motivating to the people who are participating in the change you're trying to bring about as well.
Jeff M. Poulin
Well, Jason, thank you so much for being on the Why change podcast, this was a tremendous conversation. And I look forward to many, many more in the future. Thank you for being here.
Jason White
Thank you very much, Jeff.
Jeff M. Poulin
And we're back. Rachel, I'm gonna give you the first word of response here. I've known Jason for quite some time. So I'll keep my thoughts to myself. What did you think, Jeff,
Rachael Jacobs
I'm blown away by the firstly, you know, the best people, but that is each of you. Firstly, it crept up on me. Jason is so incredible. And the interviews for me started pretty dark, we're starting to talk about some heavy content. And also, that whole theme of exploitation in the arts, that hit me like a truck. And I definitely know some of the listeners will feel the same about some of the experiences that you endure some of the ways where you're a bystander, and when you don't have the tools to, I guess, to be an upstander or things like that. But the overall tone of it was so hopeful that there was this joyful panacea to all of that pain, which was changed through innovation. And my God, I've never heard it better articulated, to be honest. What a strong theoretical frame, frankly, you know, this just makes me wonder what I'm doing with my life is just mind blowing in the way that he has brought so many different strands together, and it's just become this. This is a really guiding light in innovation. It's so impressive.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, I totally agree. You know, I think back to the moment that I first met Jason, which I believe we were trying to pinpoint as we recorded the conversation. I think it was outside of a theater at American University, which full circle is also where I teach now. And, you know, we were both I'm emerging professionals, just out of education programs, and really just connected to think pretty deeply about not only our trajectory, but sort of like what the hell we were doing, you know, in this work, and, you know, my work was at that time was really centered on public policy for arts and education. And his work was really focused on the see the dance project that he described. And, you know, what's really interesting is, if I were to sort of suppose what Why our trajectories were parallel, is we both were trying to do really hard things, understand sort of the impact or, as you said, sort of exploitation of artists, particularly, you know, artists of color within the the artistic educational learning environments. And also like moving public policy in Washington DC amidst the systemic broken systems, you know that that exists. And so, I find it really interesting because through both of those journeys, we landed in similar places, which is sort of developing theoretical frameworks for structurally disrupting what's going on. And so as I, as a bystander, watched his journey, the study of minstrel shows the study of blackface, the study of exploitation through those elements in our sector, what has emerged is this body of work that can help our field actually reimagine itself. And that process, to borrow language from our mutual friends over at the Center for Arts and Social Transformation is around this notion of social transformation, or the rearranging of hierarchies and structures and norms and relationships from within. And this idea that coming or overcoming the trauma of generations of practice, from things like blackface, can actually help us reclaim and reinvent the next generation of our work, which is so exciting to me the possibilities involved in that.
Rachael Jacobs
Yeah, and I think one of the things that Jason demonstrates through this, when he talks about seeing the dance, and he talks about reimagining the minstrel shows and how educated they are, my head is definitely about to explode. Because firstly, I just want to mention that I am sitting here in Australia or so called Australia to use the decolonized term. And we don't have the same history of minstrel shows. There is definitely a horrific history of colonial racism here. But, but like face, I'm not saying it never existed here or anything like that, you know, absolutely has been done. But we don't have the same relationship. Yeah, yeah, I can go into detail. But this is a learning experience. For me. It's definitely something that requires a lot of reading and a bit of a deep dive, which I redid after investigating Jason's work, to see him in bravery. Only owning that educational process is a hate the word inspiring, because it's just kind of trite and minimizes, you know, the transformative work that someone's doing. But I was just in awe of who I was, I was just in awe that he and his colleagues stepped up to do that really hard work. And it did inspire me to rethink about what those what those how those spaces, how spaces can be reclaimed, not to Retama ties anyone but to start to do some justice, work on the injustices of past to start to examine that exploitation and say, We want to create spaces that are anti exploitative, and how can we do that? You know, how can we do that side by side with white audiences, you know, talks about white audiences coming up and thanking him. And I did the whole thing and it was just absolutely mind blowing. I was. I was really moved. Actually, I was incredibly moved by the conversation that you had.
Jeff M. Poulin
You know, one of the things that really strikes me too, is that the answer to that question that you just posed? Is the buzzword of innovation. Right? Talk about a word that's like way overused and 100% not what I think I would have expected from Jason when reflecting on that body of really anti racist work to come up with terms like innovation and entrepreneurship, like these business school MBA style language, but what struck me like a truck, is when you break down the definitions of those things, they're inherently creative, and I think our society has sort of just like, glommed on to these terms and held on for dear life, because it's what access is money, you know, it creates opportunity. It is a quote unquote vision for the future but In reality, it's actually really based in creative process, I would say. And so I just wonder what your thoughts are of using this almost capitalist terminology, in the sense of both artistic and creative practice, but also in some of these disruptive or more anti racist approaches that we were just talking about.
Rachael Jacobs
I love it. I have stayed clear of these terms, because to me, they relate to capitalism. And to me, they've been co opted by the capitalist by late stage capitalism, as a way to make your creativity profitable and things like that. What Jason's doing is, the absolute antithesis of that is his reclaiming those terms. I also don't use those terms, because very, very early in my arts and educational career, I did use one of the terms once just in a document and talked about innovation. And someone said to me, " Rachel, are you really innovating? Could you show us how, and I talked around to it, and they went, actually, no, this is not innovation. And I was like, Ah, you cannot just use that term, there is a process that goes with that. So I've sort of kept that term as sacrosanct. But what Jason's showing us is this clear pathway of how we can reclaim that term, through this very, very, very strong theoretical narrative that he's developed. But also by harnessing it with art, and with aesthetic, and with creativity and things like that, to reclaim the word honestly, I had pretty much given the term up to the capitalists. And he's reminding me not to give up so easily. And I love that about his mission that he's on, to create this space where those terms can be used, we can fight back, using the language of the oppressor and make it make it ours.
Jeff M. Poulin
I totally agree. And, you know, I find it really interesting too, because, you know, I offer sort of the same critique that you received just of myself, right, you know, I was in a job for, you know, six or seven years and really spent a lot of time talking to decision makers be the foundation heads, or politicians or community leaders, to really convince folks about the role of arts and culture books use me of arts education, specifically, in the role of achieving these outcomes. And today, I would sit here and offer a critique of myself to say, you know, I was giving into the gatekeepers, and not critically thinking about that just simply equating arts learning equals innovation equals growth in GDP, therefore, good, right, like that. Really?
Rachael Jacobs
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
Jeff M. Poulin
What's interesting about Jason's work is I think that there is a tie that he articulates. And I'm sort of looking at his book here on my desk right now, you know, that takes us from arts and cultural education. And there's a distinction there, that's a conversation for another time, to creativity, then, to innovation through entrepreneurship. And what I would argue, especially from a lot of my own research in this space, is that there is a notion of applied creativity, which is one of the manifestations of entrepreneurship. And, he talks about entrepreneurship as being, you know, both original creations sort of more in the camp of like the art side of things, or, you know, innovation, sort of applying creativity to things that were right. And I've been fascinated with that, actually, in relation to this notion of applied creativity. And these are these four creative capabilities that I've written about a lot. And one of them is about creative thinking, and how we all as creatives have a natural propensity in one direction, or the other, maybe original creation, maybe innovation. But at the end of the day, both are caught up in how we actually apply it. And that this notion of innovation, that Jason talks about, four arts entrepreneurship, as the buzzword is here in the US, isn't about creating the next best product, but is instead about maybe solving for challenges in the world or in the art worlds maybe reimagining different ways that expression occurs. He talks about that in the sense of art, art movements, and you know, Picasso and other, you know, other types of movements over time. Which is interesting because there's a parallel, I think, between social movements and art movements in relation to this idea of entrepreneurship and innovation.
Rachael Jacobs
And I think it to add to that, I can't agree more everything, everything you just said Jeff, you I've kind of tracked that really well. And I think when he starts on, I guess, the introduction and talks about the introduction or movement or the introduction of, you know, the innovation or whatever, and talks about that being quite a dangerous time and a dangerous idea. It might not be popular. And I think he used the example of Cubism, you know, that nobody's, Yeah, nobody's jumping out of their seat when the movement first starts to happen. And the parallel that you've drawn between social movements in between innovation, I think, is really strong, because you have to be prepared to wade into that dangerous territory. And once again, this is one of the reasons why I never really got into the language of innovation, because I guess I didn't understand. You know, what, I thought more of that dangerous territory set with activism was that with social justice work, but now he's demonstrating that no, that is definitely, you know, you when you are doing different and groundbreaking work, work, it does come with danger. And that we can lean into that. I think that was really beautifully articulated. I saw that synergy between social movements, and innovation really, really strong when he talks about that, that liminal space in the introduction.
Jeff M. Poulin
It's actually funny that you use the term liminal space, because that was a topic that came up in a convening that I was at in April and made me lose my mind, because people were just talking about this amalgamation of things, because they were permitted to because we're operating in a liminal space. But I think that's actually a perfect representation for what you're describing. It actually brings me back to one of our favorite topics, which is, you know, critiquing our own fields, and some of our own long term colleagues at, you know, international conferences. But it makes me remember one of the first moments when we met, we were at a global conference. And I was actually sharing some of this research that I was just describing, around the outcomes and processes of cultivating creativity. And it was really interesting, because I was on a panel of entirely people under 30. And we were called, quote, unquote, disruptive ideas in the field. And I would say that we equally excited half the people, and made half the people angry, because we were critiquing this long standing, you know, field of practice. And it's interesting, because I think when we talk about art movements, as being disruptive, and social movements are being disruptive, it begs the question, what happens when we put those two together, when art movements are social movements, and the idea, the radical notion that applied creativity, uses the arts instead of for, like beauty and grace, for radical ideation, of addressing long standing social challenges, and what fear that strikes in people who have made their careers as artists in the vein of beauty and grace, and also what fear that strikes in these people that are seeking to keep the status quo in societies, that all of a sudden artists are using their art for social change, like what do we do, especially young artists? Oh, my God, what could happen? You know, I just think it's really interesting and provides for this, this fertile ground for us to I don't know, play and create and think about things. And
Rachael Jacobs
it does, it does provide that fertile ground, if you can find your people. And I think that there are a lot of people who do speak that truth to power, who do sort of say I am, you know, You're upsetting so many people in that movement, because firstly, you're saying that some of the practices of the past weren't okay. And, you know, obviously, that has to be that's got to be said, and, you know, obviously, we've got to be moving forward, but that You're offending half the room who were there at the time, right? Then you're not making any friends, because you pissed off that half of the room. And the other half of the room is interested in upholding those structures. So they're like, can you please stop talking about this? So that's it. And so and now you're left, you know, sitting alone, and that's the dangerous space where you can walk away and say, No, I'm not going to engage in this exploitative bullshit anymore. Unless you have your people, unless you have your posse, and it might be the numbers might be small, but that is that fertile ground to play. And I guess, you know, my call is that I don't really want to see anyone left alone in that space. I personally have felt alone and ostracized, and, you know, as a result of a few things that I've said and maybe I haven't expressed them as eloquently as I could have. But I think that, yeah, that's something that we just need to keep in mind is that nobody gets, nobody gets left out in a just conversation. But if I can return to Jason's work, again, going back to the bravery of see the dance, this is life changing stuff, you know, I can only imagine how that work is received in some spaces in the US and all over the world, you know, I don't imagine it'd be received any differently over here. And to put that self out there with an artistic colleague, and things like that is just, I guess, you know, an example of how we can use our own experience, to open up spaces for dialogue and conversation and learning. It might come at great personal cost. But, Jason is still so hopeful and still smiling.
Jeff M. Poulin
That's exactly right. And I think that's a wonderful note to end on to just remember that hope. And also, joy are two essential pieces of this work. You know, we always ask people those same five questions at the end of every interview, you know, how are you motivated? And what keeps you grounded? And why change? And overwhelmingly, it's because people are hopeful for the future. And I think that that is exemplified in Jason's work. And I'm so excited that I got to share that with you. I'm so excited to now have the book. I've heard about this book for a long time. I now have a
Rachael Jacobs
Look, I know, as soon as I was listening, I was Googling at the same time going right and getting the book. Yeah.
Jeff M. Poulin
And, you know, I think it's a wonderful note, to leave all of our listeners on is this work is hard. It's really important. We can reclaim words that we might have avoided for quite some time, and they may just actually lead us to overcoming some pretty steep challenges. So with that, we'll call it to a close for today. Thanks, everyone, for tuning in for this episode of the wide change podcast. Thanks to Jason for the conversation. And thank you to Rachael for having a nice chat about these big ideas. Thank you.
Jeff M. Poulin
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for Creative Generation. If you would like to support this podcast aimed at amplifying the voices of creative changemakers around the world, please consider donating through the link located in the episodes show notes. These show notes contain all sources discussed in the episode. Be sure to follow. Like, subscribe, and share the why change podcast to make sure you and your networks get episodes delivered directly to you and that you don't miss any stories of creative work happening around the world. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, we'd love to hear from you. You can write to us at info at Creative-generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. Our show was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Our music is by Distant Cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.