During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Madeleine and Jeff discuss their return to work and life after the 6th International Teaching Artists Conference in Oslo, Norway. They discuss Madeleine’s interview with Dr. Chen Alon, a theatre activist, teaching artist, and professor in Israel/Palestine. The discussion contemplates an evolution of Augusto Boal’s Theatre of the Oppressed, bridging polarized communities, and hope.
Please download the transcript here
In this episode you’ll learn:
How theatre education activities can bridge polarized groups in a society;
What ways teaching artists provide necessary contextualization in moments and spaces of conflict; and
What practices cultivate hopeful actions of imagining new futures amidst conflict.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
ABOUT CHEN ALON:
Dr. Chen Alon is a theatre activist, director and scholar. Alon is the head of Community Theatre and Artivism (Art & Activism) Program in the Theatre Arts Department at Tel-Aviv University. Alon is a co-founder of Combatants for Peace, a movement of Palestinian and Israeli combatants who have abandoned the way of violence and struggle together non-violently against the occupation. He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, with Suleiman Khatib, Co-Founder of Combatants for Peace (2017-2018). Activism in the complicated reality in Israel/Palestine led him, as a professional actor and director, to search and create new forms of activist theatre with conflicted groups of Palestinian and Israelis, prisoners, drug addicts, homeless people and youth. Alon is the founder of Holot Theatre, a company of African asylum seekers and Israeli citizens. The 'Polarized Model of Theatre of the Oppressed' that Alon has developed in the past two decades is depicted in the documentaries Disturbing the Peace (Stephen Apkon & Andrew Young, 2015), and Between Fences (Avi Mograbi, 2016).
This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk; the executive producer is Jeff M. Poulin. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Creative Generation’s Digital Media Producer is Daniel Stanley. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s webpage and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:01
This is "Why Change?," the podcast for Creative Generation.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:04
We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Estela Rivera 00:06
Hola Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs 00:08
It's Rachael here.
Ashraf Hasham 00:09
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk 00:11
And I'm Madeleine.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:13
"Why Change?" is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how artists, educators and cultural practitioners can change the world, one community at a time.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:22
We believe that young people are our world's greatest asset, and recognize that we, as the adults who are dedicated to their creative development, have work to do so they can thrive.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:32
Listeners are invited each week to learn and laugh while envisioning new creative futures through the question, why change?
Jeff M. Poulin 00:40
Alright, let's get started.
Madeleine McGirk 00:42
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of the "Why Change?" Podcast. I'm Madeleine and delighted to welcome you. And hello, I am here with Jeff, how are you?
Jeff M. Poulin 00:53
Hey, Madeleine, it is good to be here and be back on the mic with you since we last saw each other in-person. After two years, I think it had been such a treat.
Madeleine McGirk 01:07
I know that was such a whirlwind few days, we just had ITEC 6 in Oslo for anyone listening. And of course, ITAC5, our last conference, had to move online. So it has been four years since ITAC had our last in-person conference. And I'm still kind of coming down from the hive being in a room with everyone. And obviously, Jeff, you are one of those people.
Madeleine McGirk 01:27
So what have you been doing since what's the latest with you?
Jeff M. Poulin 01:30
Well, since I got back from Oslo, I started with a big nap. Because it was a packed few days. And then really moved right on into a number of projects, we are really in the depths of our work as it's back to school time. All of our education and cultural settings are really back in person in session. So I've actually been on the road quite a bit since Oslo in a number of different places throughout the United States, offering professional development working with artists and educators and youth in communities in their work driving social change. So it's been really fun, but also just a continuous whirlwind, I think until we reach the end of the year.
Madeleine McGirk 02:14
Yes. Oh, I know what you mean, I got home from ITAC6, I think I slept for like three days. Like, is this COVID? Or am I just exhausted? And it turns out, I was just exhausted.
Jeff M. Poulin 02:25
Absolutely. So what's next for you?
Madeleine McGirk 02:28
Oh, so much. So obviously, these check in points are their conferences every two years and this massive check in point for me with the network and with everyone that we aim to serve with the network and you sort of get to hear what's been working, what do you think is still missing? Are there still gaps? And then I just try and spend those days listening as deeply as I can to what may be something we can do next? Where can we still make ourselves useful that we haven't been yet. And what's worked well. So I have come away with just a buzz of thoughts and ideas and areas to look at. The other thing was ITAC was 10 years old. Our conferences were 10 years old in Oslo. So that was kind of cool. And it makes you think about what might the next decade be? So all of that swirling around with me just knows lots of strategic plans and project ideas coming to fruition, which is kind of a nice place to be.
Jeff M. Poulin 03:24
Absolutely. And you know, I'm really excited just kind of thinking back about the event because we got a chance, actually the two of us along with a couple of other people to share a meal with your guest today. So tell us a little bit about the interview that we'll listen to.
Madeleine McGirk 03:41
Yes, so the interview today is Chen Alon, who is one of our ITAC leadership committee members, but also just a phenomenally interesting person. He is so lovely and kind, but also just has this huge back catalog of work, and of achievements, and just amazing courage and creativity. And I'm just a huge fan of everything that he has done.
Madeleine McGirk 04:06
So I won't say too much about the content of the interview because he just speaks so well for himself. I won't, you know, do it for him. But one thing about his work is he works in conflict zones, specifically in the Middle East, Israel and Palestine. And he works in that really challenging space. And he's made such amazing work such an amazing catalog, a framework and approach. But he was even nominally nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize in the past. I think I said earlier, I think I'm quite glad I forgot that about him because otherwise I would not have been able to keep my cool talking to him. But he is just someone who has had such an impact in his area. So I'm really pleased to be able to share this interview with everyone.
Jeff M. Poulin 04:54
Excellent. Well, let's give it a listen and we'll come back on the flip side.
Madeleine McGirk 05:00
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of the "Why Change?" podcast. And today I am absolutely delighted to be joined by Chen Alon, who, thank you so much for being here to talk to us today. And for anyone listening Chen is on our ITAC leadership committee. So to give a bit of context about how we know each other ITAC, as most people probably know, a thorough listening, are guided by participatory arts, teaching artists, community arts leaders from different parts of the world. And still, they help us make decisions about where to go next, where we should be focusing our energies, and just generally contribute to the overall direction of the collaborative along with our network members.
Madeleine McGirk 05:47
So thank you so much for being here to talk to me, because I know on any given day, you have a million things to be doing. But to get started, could you tell me tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, where you are in the world right now and just explain a bit about the work that you primarily do?
Chen Alon 06:08
Yeah, so hello, and thank you for hosting me. My name is Chen and I'm in Tel Aviv right now. Tel Aviv, Israel, Palestine, and I always say Israel, Palestine, because Palestine is erased from the map by the occupation, the Israeli occupation. So that's an opening remark that I think we'll expose a little bit of who I am.
Chen Alon 06:33
I'm theater activist, Director, scholar facilitator, and as we say, in Theater of the Oppressed of Augusto Boal, I'm a joker, which means all of the all of the above an Israeli Jewish citizen, I served in the Israeli army, which is a mandatory service in Israel, I became a major in the army. And then I was a professional actor and director in the repertory theater after studying in acting school. And when I realized that I cannot be an artist in a democratic state, which oppresses and occupies other people I refuse to serve in the army, I was sentenced to jail for that. And when I was released from jail, I became an activist who aims to use theater for activism , not living separate from artistic existence and civilian existence. So I tried to integrate between them and became a theater activist I studied with Augusto Boal himself I've changed the course of my power art, and theater and directing and acting and I became a Theater of the Oppressed practitioner starting my own journey in theater, which means I started to work with polarized groups with Israelis and Palestinians, with Jews and Arabs, with prisoners and non prisoners, addicts and non addicts. asylum seekers and refugees and groups of citizens of Israel and so on have developed what I call today the "Polarized Theater of the Oppressed."
Madeleine McGirk 08:37
Wow, oh my god, I'm so excited to talk to you see, there's so much to unpack. Okay, so just to pick up a little bit of what you were seeing at the end there about your practice, and the work that you tend to address you mentioned, activism, polarization, even addiction, and obviously the Augusto Boal Theatre of the Oppressed and your own kind of adaptation of that now. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you decide to focus on those specific issues that lead you in any one direction for a project or for, you know, chunks of your career? And maybe give some examples of how you use art in those spaces to address those issues.
Chen Alon 09:24
So first of all, I can say that you know, I'm my or my, my roots are in regular conventional theater in art, which means written play direction, lighting, costumes, you know, all what we when we say theater, we're all thinking about but what Augusto Boal says in his first book that Theater of the Oppressed comes out of a need. So in my case, it was really it. That was what happened to me. I was a theater practitioner for 10 years in the field and only then I realized that my need is to use theater for different purposes and not only for artistic, you know, goals or, or results or outcomes. The real need for me in theater is more, not more, mainly activist and therapeutic than artistic needs. I truly believe like, think most of the people in Theater of the Oppressed that they are the theater theatrical medium is a triangle of art, activism and therapy, it's not only one of them, I mean, in its best theater is all the three of these three pillars or components existing or being presented on stage.
Chen Alon 10:57
So for me, it was that I realized that I cannot do conventional theater anymore. I didn't know what I wanted to do. But I knew that I wanted to use Theatre. In my activism, first in Israeli society, refusing to serve the occupation in the apartheid, convincing my people that the occupation and the apartheid, the destruction of our society of our future, and so on, and then working with Palestinians hand in hand or in proper shape. And then I realized that the model of Theater of the Oppressed which is homogeneous by Augusto Boal, as it was written and formed by Mr. Boal is homogeneous in a way that it deals with homogeneous communities. And I realized that wherever I go here in the Middle East in Israel and Palestine, I face polarities, hostility, hatred, stereotypes, prejudices, and so on. And I started intuitively to develop with the tools with the techniques of theater view, press the polarized model. By the way, Augusto I got an Augusto Boal was a blessing for this model. Because I worked with people who were going through transformation with Theatre of the Oppressed, I mean, transforming the hostility, the hatred, and so on into not only into dialogue, reconciliation and reorganization, but also into alliances into activist alliances into political alliances, which mean reorganizing in a way that Israelis and Palestinians are now partners and allies to nonviolent resistance to the occupation and the apartheid. So and on the other hand, we are using Theatre of the Oppressed in order to to develop a reorganization or reconciliation, dialogue and other processes.
Madeleine McGirk 13:05
Wow. Thank you. And that's amazing that you got the stain off from Augusto Boal. Wow, that's a huge mark of approval, right. And I noticed that you said that your theater training or your roots in the sort of more traditional theater practice led you into your peaceful resistance and your activism and that sort of mixed phase that went on to become your career focus. And I wonder, was there a specific teacher, you had a specific theater experience that brought you into realizing you don't want to do this anymore? And you're willing to take that huge leap and the jail sentence and all that comes with it to be part of a resistance? Was there something that happened in your theater training that got you there?
Chen Alon 13:55
It's interesting that you're asking about theater training, and not about real life or reality that is part of performance and theater as I see it. So I had some transformational points or events that happened to me that helped me to realize that I can no longer live this split existence of, you know, being an artist in a democratic state and an officer in occupation, regime, military regime. So and or being a very caring and loving father to my own children and being totally blind and shutter to Palestinian kids in the occupation.
Chen Alon 14:53
So I have just one you know, I have many transformational episodes that led to this transformation for Um, from being an obeying, you know, Officer or obeying a citizen who's serving in reserve duty, and into an activist or refuser, or someone who was trying to find new ways that suffered the oppressing mechanism. And I'll give you one example: I was an actor in the repertory theater of beer Sheva. In Israel. I was playing in, in, in an American play by Clifford Odets awake and sing, I was playing Ralph Burger. The main character was kind of a revolutionary guy in the years of the depression in the US 1929-1930 where there was an economic depression. And he's like, you know, trying to convince his Jewish family in the Bronx that a revolution is needed, or a transformation of the capitalist system in the US is needed in order to get over the crisis, and not only reforms or, you know, just the survival mode. And then we are performing it was a very good show very successful one, there's, you know, like, three applause of the audience. And already, I would, I don't know, it was 28 years old, the professional actor in repertory theater, we are bowing, thanking the audience for loving the message of, of this play and of the show, and I'm taking off my Bronx 1929 costume of the show, and wearing my uniform military uniform Miller major, and driving with my car, 45 minutes to Gaza Strip, to fulfill my 30 days of reserve duty and to become the commander of the checkpoint that I was in charge of, and stopping a Palestinian couple with a baby trying to go to hospital. So from Ralph burger an hour ago, on stage being a revolutionary idealists, young men want to change the world and to to change the system. I'm already an hour later in real life, I'm playing a role of an officer who's preventing Palestinian capital to take their own baby to an hospital.
Chen Alon 17:33
So in real time, I didn't notice that this is a trend from a transformational moment. But, you know, after processing aid, I realized that, you know, this is a steady slap skin moment for me. How can you be the same person, the same human being in two different roles in a gap of two hours doing such different things and call this art and this reality? No, I wanted to change this course and wanted to integrate these two characters into one character that I can live in peace with and be authentic to, to who I really feel that I am. And then I've decided to refuse to change not only my civilian existence, but my artistic existence, as well as I see it as a one integrated, authentic character.
Madeleine McGirk 18:34
I think that's an incredibly important distinction for people to hear and to think about, because what a powerful moment, literally taking off one costume and then having to put on another and go into something radically different.
Chen Alon 18:48
And then we're costumes, one of them is considered to be a costume of, you know, legitimate artistic costume. And the other one was a custom of a uniform and ranks of a major in the reality, but it's the same, we have to use the same integrity and responsibility for all the roles that we play in art and in reality.
Madeleine McGirk 19:14
And then I know from that point, you went on this huge journey that's led you to where you are now. And you mentioned right around this beginning point right around these transformations happening for you. You decided to try and bring others in and to try and help shift the people around you into having similar realizations or similar moments of clarity. And I wonder how you went about that? The reason I asked about your drama training was so many of the people in our network help facilitate these moments for people they work with, where you see things in a new light and you suddenly have that aha moment of what you have been doing or want to be doing. And I know you suddenly went from having your own to creating that for people around you to bring them with you in this room. stint. And I wonder if you could talk a bit about what that looked like.
Chen Alon 20:06
Yeah, as I've, as I've mentioned before, I truly believe that my acting training, my theatrical studies and training helped me to process this moment and others, as I, I call termed it as Stanislavski moment, but it's a moment of reading my life as a play. Reading this scene in the theater, in the Gaza Strip, as part of the same act, you know, in my life, and analyzing my character, not only as you know, someone who's finding himself in different settings all the time, but someone who's leading the plot of his life. And so, all these I think all these tools that I got in acting school and later on as a director and actor in you know, short and long pro artistic processes led me to realize as I said, that theater is much more wide medium than only Okay, let's have a play, you know, directed acted, let's design, costume lighting and the core and sell it as a product. So, theater is not a product for me anymore, it wasn't bad. At that moment, you know, theater is a human mode that we have to develop together.
Chen Alon 21:48
But what I realized is that a word that is usually lacking from artistic creation, especially in theater, and especially in you know, in conventional theater and classics, is the context. And moreover, the contextualization, so, I started to be invested and interested more in the context and the process of contextualization, why are we doing this, why we are together in the same space, why the relationship from the reality and in the aesthetic space are two layers that should be performed, or presented or display for the contextualize contextualized audience. For, in our case, the Israelis and the Palestinians, they don't want to see, you know, only decontextualized fields in the 16th century, they want to see how theater is relevant and, and applicable for them for their bloody context that they live in. And, moreover, in Theatre of the Oppressed and foreign theater to change it, by action on stage in the real time not to wait for the politicians to create their or to bring the change. I hope it's clear. If not, please ask me to make it clear,
Madeleine McGirk 23:21
That's really helpful. And I think what would be really useful, too, is to understand how you set about this work? Because there was a really clear chain of events around the why, and what led you into doing this reason and the transformations. And I wonder, how did you actually go from a wreck company actor to activism and to delivering this work with communities? So did you start with a few projects? Did you start your own company? How did you start actually delivering the work?
Chen Alon 23:59
First of all, as I said, it was a crisis, it was a need. It was something that happened to me abruptly and I wasn't, I didn't plan it, and I wasn't ready or prepared for it. So the first steps were, were really some kind of an action out of an emergency or that I felt for my own mental health and for the responsibility that I felt for my society, for my surroundings and so on. So intuitively, I started to search for new ways and I just encountered Agusta wall books when I went to the University. I started to study theater and literature from the beginning. And I found that it was to borrow books. I thought he was, you know, that person already. I Stanislavski like, alto and all the people that were already dead when I started to study, and I realized that he is alive. So I just immediately traveled to start to train with him. And intuitively, I started to work with these techniques and methods as I understood them from the book. It was before the internet era. And then I started to work and I realized that intuitively as a creator, as a director, or as a joker, I want to work with conflict and with the energy of conflict, which is theater, but with hostility and hatred and, and some factions, suspicion, and with stereotypes and prejudice, so I started to just to find project with youth, Jews and Arabs, I joined a project that called the viewpoints, I started to work in prisons. And along the way, or as Antonio Machado the Spanish poet says, we work, we make our way by working, I started to develop this model. And that happened alongside the development of the movement Combatants for Peace, which was a movement of Israelis and Palestinians. We founded it in 2005. Right after the refusal campaign, Israelis and Palestinians or abandoned the the violence circle, throw their weapons and decided to establish the movement Combatants for Peace, which is, on one hand, as I said, dialogue, reconciliation and reorganization path, and on the other non developing nonviolent resistance against the occupation and the apartheid. So I started to work intuitively with you, with prisoners, and with drug addicts, and so on. And at the same time, I've developed this polarized Theater of the Oppressed model within the movement Combatants for Peace, Israelis and Palestinians. That was kind of until today a laboratory of the polarized Theater of the Oppressed for me, for Israelis and Palestinians who are doing Theater of the Oppressed together for the purposes that I've mentioned earlier.
Madeleine McGirk 27:35
Wow. And I think you may have just answered my next question, but I want to ask it anyway, just in case it was, I know you work in activism, and that's a long term thing. These aren't small projects you're taking on. So I mean, project in the broadest possible thing that could also be movement or shift or transformation. But if you had to pick one project, or something that you have been involved in, that you're particularly proud of, what would that be? And what is it about that work that makes you so proud of it?
Chen Alon 28:15
So I have two anecdotes for you. If I make it in a you know, I love all my projects, like it's a cliche, but I love them all the same because they're all My children, but I have an honest answer to this. One of them would be that there are some transformational events in Forum theater that I went through. One of them was a theater piece that we showed in a real checkpoint in a real roadblock next to the village of Schufa. And the scene was about it was in the theater of the oppressive informed theater. It's always based on true stories that we have experienced in the occupation. So one of the story was a great Palestinian grandchild is bringing back his grandfather to the village after an surgery in operation in hospital, and the soldiers in the checkpoint are asking a demanding not allowing the grandchild and his grandfather to pass through the checkpoints and they are forcing him to do the tour of 30 kilometers back to the village although the villages in you know, just walking distance from the checkpoint. And that's the thing and in the form of theater, the audience is invited to replace the characters and to find solutions on stage. So we played and did this scene many times. We did it in front of Israelis in front of Palestinians in front of polarized audiences. But that time, a lot of times we did it in the real place where It took place and it was kind of a site specific theater site specific form theater. And a lot of the time we are Israelis and Palestinians on stage, which is, you know, just a blockade or a sand blockade roadblock surrounded by soldiers, Israeli soldiers, and sometimes Jewish settlers. So there are many audiences to this show. And then we insist that the actors themselves are always mixed. So the grandchild was a Palestinian actor. The grandfather was an Israeli actor, the soldiers and the officer in the checkpoints were Palestinians and Israeli mixed. One of the soldiers was a Palestinian soldier, one of the soldiers was an Israeli actor, and the officer was Palestinian actor. And while we are doing this, and the audience is replacing the character of the grandchild to find solution for his grandfather on the scene, the real major, the real columella that was in charge of this to block us the was the commander of the army unit was invading while I was in fact inviting the audience a spectator to become SPECT actors and to replace the character of the protagonist, the real colonial invaded stage and was about to arrest McNeil, the Palestinian actor was playing these rarely made these rarely colonial. So you see, a real Coronel trying to arrest a fake or artistic colonial on stage was played by a Palestinian actor. And immediately I just stopped, I just shouted freeze and I started to talk to the real Coronel before he was arresting the, the, the actor, and I asked him, Why are you arresting? And he said, This is a contamination, or, you know, I don't know, what's the word in English, but like, you're not allowed to wear a real army uniform here. So I said, okay, okay, don't arrest him, he will take off his uniform shirt, and he will be an actor. And then we're allowed to do this because without the uniform and so on, and the negotiation or the conversation or the argue, arguing with a real Colonnello on stage. And mediating between the actor and the real Coronel and in this, the audience's watching, this became a new theater, new mode of theater, new political occurrence, new, new event that is a very, very different new activist event that is very difficult to define. But it's performative, it's theatrical, it's ridiculous, it was mocking the power of oppression and so on. And we managed to convince him not to arrest me and to allow him to play without a shirt. And when my insight was that I told the audience, we are continuing the show, the show must go on. And the power that we have on the army, on the oppressive forces is that we can imagine now millennia without a shirt, we could still imagine him as a column of the Israeli army. And our power is only our imagination. I mean, our only power is our imagination, because the soldier cannot imagine a different future we can. And that's why we will win in our imagination and will create a different future than this set and depressive present.
Chen Alon 33:56
So this is one. One event that I'm very proud of, or very, that is very transformational. And I know that it was transformational for all the people that were there. both the Israelis and the Palestinians who were part of this theater and the Israelis and the Palestinians. There were around 100 Israelis and Palestinians witnessing the scene that I was describing here. And this is one episode.
Chen Alon 34:28
The other one is that another project that I've done with I've developed since 2014, weeds African asylum seekers and refugees in Israel. It's called a HELOC theater. It said, polarized Theatre of the Oppressed that I'm doing things we've been doing since 2014. It's already been eight years, Israeli citizens and asylum seekers from Africa doing In the theater together, this project is depicted in Avi Mugabe's documentary Between Fences. And it's free online on YouTube, Between Fences. And we have done three shows since 2015. The latest is called illegal human beings. And the event that I'm proud of is that we returned to the detention center, this prison where 1000s of African asylum seekers were imprisoned by the Israeli state. And at the same event, we were performing our theatrical show, which was called legislative theater. And we screened outside of the detention camp for 1000s of African asylum seekers and 100 of Israeli rally supporters. We did the theatrical show. And then we perform the documentary of the two years process that led to this production. So it was one of the most amazing artivist events that I've ever taken part in. And these are two events that I think demonstrate what might be the outcomes of the polarized Theatre of the Oppressed.
Madeleine McGirk 36:30
Wow, thank you so much, I can see exactly why you speak so much about reality and the overlap with the artistic expression and how they're one in the same. That first anecdote was such a poignant example of that in real life. So thank you for sharing those. And finally, if you were to look ahead to the future, it seems like your work is going to be something that is a lifelong pursuit, and not something that you know shifts every now and then. But if you were to look ahead to the future, and if you were to make a guess, we're different change makers in the world should all focus our energy, so that we're ready for whatever comes next and future thinking. What do you think that would look like? Where would you advise everyone to be focusing energies?
Chen Alon 37:22
Wow, it's a big question, Madeleine.
Chen Alon 37:24
I think global warming, you know, it's an issue that we all take very seriously in consideration, and it's urgent to take action on it. So it's not about religion, nation, you know. Of course, it's economic, and it deals with the economic system. But I think that's the main concern that we all have to unite against. Or not against, but for. But I think I mean, more. For me more abstract is more, sometimes more concrete means that we have to understand the power and, and the energy of conflict, not only as a negative thing. I mean, I think that, you know, if we're talking about global warming, and we're talking about social nets, as something that is, you know, that we're ambivalent to, it's on one hand, it's a democratic tool. On the other hand, it deepens the polarization of the world, right on polarization of conflicts and hostilities, stereotypes and prejudices and so on. And it allows more I would say less it's, it harms the democratic the democratic cessation of the world.
Chen Alon 39:10
So by saying this, I would say that we all have to focus on not giving up hope. Because I think the reality nowadays, especially how it is being reflected by social media, is indoctrinating us to say this is the system we have nothing to do. It's lost. Everything seems lost, you know, global warming, the political systems around us, it seems that we are walking in the path of Aduan, Putin, Trump, balsamic or Netanyahu. These kinds of democracies, democracies, or political systems, I think that art can play an amazing and amazing role in it. To help us to imagine different systems, because social media is not helping us to imagine different systems and art can help us to imagine different systems, different structures for the future that will help us to get out of this current crisis.
Madeleine McGirk 40:37
Thank you, it was amazing how many people that I speak to, it comes back to imagination every single time. And I love that you threw hope in there too, because I completely agree with you about imagining the future and that being ahead. So thank you so much for finding the time to talk. We ask these quickfire questions at the end of every episode just to get a feel for everyone and you know, who they are and what grounds them and all these kinds of things. So, normally, we ask for one word or very short quickfire answers.
Madeleine McGirk 41:11
So, I will get started. There are just a few, who inspires you?
Chen Alon 41:17
Augusto Boal.
Madeleine McGirk 41:21
What keeps you motivated?
Chen Alon 41:25
Responsibility, my responsibility not to lose hope.
Madeleine McGirk 41:31
And when are you most grounded?
Chen Alon 41:35
In polarized spaces, where tension of conflict and reconciliation, realization, resolution exist side by side?
Madeleine McGirk 41:48
How do you stay focused?
Chen Alon 41:52
With concrete, activist goals and targets.
Madeleine McGirk 41:58
And finally, why change?
Chen Alon 42:04
Because change is a manifestation of an action and action is the basis of existence. And these are the infrastructure of hope and curiosity.
Madeleine McGirk 42:22
Well, thank you so much, that is officially the end of my list of questions. And I hope that everyone takes away and thinks really seriously about what we've talked about, I'm going to share some links in the show notes. So if anyone wants to see more of your work, or look at websites, or social media or anything like that, those will be there. But for now, I just want to say a huge big thank you to Chen for spending time with us and for sharing some of your incredible journey. And what that looks like. So far, I know it will help inform a lot of our listeners. So thank you so much.
Chen Alon 43:00
Thank you very much.
Jeff M. Poulin 43:04
And we're back. Madalyn, I wow, I just you know, I'm glad I hadn't listened to this episode, I think when we had dinner, because I like you. I'm just absolutely astounded by not only this work, because I know that there's a lot of people that do conflict resolution work or do civil society work in conflict zones around the world. But this role of teaching artists as being sort of a bridge between deeply deeply polarized segments of society is just astounding for me.
Madeleine McGirk 43:41
Yeah, me too. I think there's something about it. I was also lucky enough to attend his workshop at ITAC6, and see clips of the documentary that was made about him and his work and all of that kind of stuff. And oh, my goodness, the courage, the absolute courage and ability to do what you feel is right in the face of such barriers, such circumstances that will try and make you act otherwise, I just, I'm constantly floored by people who take a stance and do the kind of work that Chen does.
Madeleine McGirk 44:17
And also just how clearly he seems to be able to see his role in that conflict. You know, there's so much going on. There's so much information and pressure flying around in those situations from how he describes them. And I think to be able to have the clarity of purpose and to know the impact that you can have with the kind of model that he's developed. And, and the ability to pin it on in the spaces that he puts on in it is quite amazing.
Jeff M. Poulin 44:44
Yeah, agreed and those spaces in particular, right, like, I love that this type of work as with all Theater of the Oppressed work doesn't happen in a theater space, right. I feel like they would lose so much of its impact in a, you know, proscenium theater with big red curtains and, you know, chairs that are fastened to the ground. But I find it really interesting and to use your term like really brave to do this work in the specific conflict zones, and I'm not talking like global regions, I'm talking like, proximity, like direct proximity to humans, in a in an area in the neighborhood, I just I find it the risk to be something that is very real, and the bravery of those both spectators and actors to come face to face with that conflict to be remarkable.
Madeleine McGirk 45:43
Yeah, and I think that's where the rule of creativity is so crucial here, because just for anyone who wasn't clear, he often does stage the Theater of the Oppressed performances, in at the actual roadblocks that he's that they're talking about are exploring in the pieces. And so he is very much, you know, the backdrop of these performances, is the military, it is the actual literal roadblock. And they're standing in front of it, doing their pieces and asking people to question or to think of other ways or alternative realities that could exist or choices that could be made. And, of course, the military will sometimes come in and stop it, or, you know, things will happen, because it's a very real center of conflict. And so the layers that are present in these performances that people are asked to consider alongside just the actions they're seeing on stage, are so tired and meta, they're so huge and, and complex, that it's so much more than just the acting and the performing and the interaction with the audience. It's, it's the whole world that you're invited into. And I think that is so powerful.
Jeff M. Poulin 47:00
Agreed. And it's that context that I think makes the difference in your conversation with Chen he was, you know, really talking about the role of contextualization in everything from the the clothes that are worn, the physical spaces that are occupied, and also the, the belief system that is employed to really build that understanding and perspective. Because in conflicts like this, right, there's so much complexity so much wrapped up in identity, history, heritage, that needs unpacking, it needs that unpicking in a way that, you know, really only theater can do. And that contextualization and how that breaks down into this model that can be used. For me, it takes the Augusto Boal world Theatre of the Oppressed model even further and maybe, is working towards an evolution of this, maybe the Theater of the Oppressed 2.0, if you will,
Madeleine McGirk 48:07
Right, he said in his workshop, actually. So he trained with Augusto Boal in Theater of the Oppressed, and then, I think, developed his own framework, which he talks about here, and brought it back and apparently got the approval of Augusto Boal for this new evolved framework. And he said something very cool along the lines of of course, you don't need permission. Right. But it's nice to have it. Like, I bet I mean, what, what an absolute seal of approval from, you know, one of the most noted practitioners of times, and I thought that was really cool to have had that, you know, shown that evolution and how it can work in the polarized communities and beyond the model that that you receive, you know?
Jeff M. Poulin 48:50
Absolutely. And I think that that's such an important piece, because that term polarization just really strikes me just now that, you know, if I just reflect back on my life, you know, 1989 to today, the idea that polarization has just simply been increasing, really strikes me that in my lived experience, you know, which is one a distinct privilege, you know, in the US and the ability to travel around the world and things like that, but that even taking the year 2020 with the the political election, which was polarized the growing economic disparity because of the pandemic, which was polarizing the connectedness among among people due to technology or lack of access to technology like is polarizing and so we're just becoming more and more polarized so that evolution of theatrical practices or theater education or what have you from from sort of the work of Augusto Boal, while to be more responsive, I think is truly only the right and necessary thing that could happen in order to respond to what's going on in communities around the world.
Madeleine McGirk 50:00
Yeah, heartbreakingly it will just never not be relevant, it seems in our lifetime. And so I'm so pleased that resistance like this exists.
Jeff M. Poulin 50:10
You know, at Creative Generation, we have sort of a social practice, that when we feel something, we name it, and I'm feeling a little heavy in this conversation. But I just want to also note that there was so much hope in your dialogue. And I think the work in and of itself is grounded in this notion of imagining new futures, which is a term that that was used in your conversation, really, this idea grounded in not only a future thinking, but truly in the hope of possibility of what could be if we build this empathy and this understanding and create these bridges, among polarized constituencies in a society.
Madeleine McGirk 50:56
I always think, I always think that resistance and activism of any kind, no matter how heavy or kind of fraught, or, you know, hopeless, it may feel at points, is just inherently a hopeful act like it is just working towards the assumption that with time and energy and education and, you know, effort, things can be different, and that they must be you know, and I think that's where this work is. So, like, it is joyful, it is resistance in a really stepped forward positive kind of way. It's just inherently hopeful. If everyone had given up, nobody would try, you know,
Jeff M. Poulin 51:36
Agreed, and what that does for me is it really underscores the importance and the significance of, of teaching artists that, you know, teaching artists are no longer the, you know, periodic visitors to classrooms that teach you, you know, the 6 strings on a guitar, or whatever, I don't actually know how many strings guitar has. But the idea that teaching artists is central to doing the most crucial work in communities. And that, to me, is the most hopeful thing, because as just demonstrated, when you and I were in Oslo, there's hundreds of 1000s of teaching artists out there. Imagine the potential of all these teaching artists taking actions exactly like Han has done in order to bring that joyful resistance or that hope to communities. I just think that's astounding.
Madeleine McGirk 52:29
Yeah. Eric always calls the like, the sleeping giant, like just still ready to wake and just completely move the world, you know? And I really, I really see that and especially when you hear like, such powerful work, is this you kind of Yeah, I do get quite excited about the prospect and the possibilities at all.
Jeff M. Poulin 52:48
Yes, it gives me chills, and it makes me want to go back to Oslo.
Madeleine McGirk 52:52
I know, I feel like now I have to wait two years for the next gathering and like, what am I gonna do everyone's such a happy space to be in?
Jeff M. Poulin 53:00
Well, you know, in a way, we have these little mini gatherings with every conversation that we have here on the wide change podcast. And it does continue to give me hope, and it inspires me to take action.
Madeleine McGirk 53:11
Yeah, that's a lovely silver lining to think of this as. So with that being said, and thank you all so much for listening to our little mini gathering, as Jeff put it, and we look forward to bringing you many more so please keep tuning in. And thanks for being with us.
Jeff M. Poulin 53:27
Thank you.
Jeff M. Poulin 53:28
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of "Why Change?" the podcast for Creative Generation.
Jeff M. Poulin 53:33
If you would like to support this podcast aimed at amplifying the voices of creative changemakers around the world. Please consider donating through the link located in the episodes show notes. These show notes contain all sources discussed in the episode. Be sure to follow. Like, subscribe, and share the Why change podcast to make sure you and your networks get episodes delivered directly to you and that you don't miss any stories of creative work happening around the world. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, we'd love to hear from you. You can write to us at info@creative-generation.org. We'd love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you.
Jeff M. Poulin 54:16
This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk, Executive Editor is me Jeff M. Poulin, artwork by Bridget Woodbury, our digital media producer is Daniel Stanley, this podcast theme music is by distant cousins, a special thanks to our contributors, co-hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.