During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Rachael and Jeff discuss their recent work and draw connections to Jeff’s interview. Jeff shares his conversation with Jean Hendrickson, a champion for arts integration in her community and around the world. They discuss the opportunities and challenge of scaling and the bravery needed to achieve it. Rachael and Jeff share their hopes and frustrations with adoption of permission practices in education reform.
In this episode you’ll learn:
About a model of whole school arts integration and how it emerged;
How the story of a champion of arts integration influenced the adoption of a practice; and
Why the arts should remain at the center of all we do as educators, leaders, and advocates.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
Oklahoma A+ Schools Institute at the University of Central Oklahoma
S3 Ep14: Grasping The Aerosol Of Creativity With Michael Anderson
Preparing Educators for Arts Integration: Placing Creativity at the Center of Learning book
About Jean Hendrickson
Director emeritus of Oklahoma A+ Schools at the University of Central Oklahoma, Jean is a speaker and writer who consults with those that share her belief that all children are entitled to a rich, full, educational experience that equips them to take their rightful place in the world. She works with groups such as the National A+ Schools Consortium (www.nationalaplusschools.org), the Americans for the Arts, Crystal Bridges, and other like-minded organizations working to put the arts in their rightful place in schools and communities.
Executive director for OKA+ Schools from 2003-2014, Jean directed development across the state and fostered national and international partnerships. OKA+ Schools’ model has been cited in such works as Sir Ken Robinson’s books, Creative Schools and The Element, the President’s Committee on the Arts and Humanities’ landmark report Reinvesting in Arts Education: Winning America’s Future through Creative Schools, the latter of which launched the nationwide Turnaround Arts initiative for which she served as a member of the team that trained the schools’ cadres for the first two years. Jean authored a chapter in the book Preparing Educators for Arts Integration, a project of the Arts Education Partnership’s Higher Ed Task Force, and has contributed numerous articles and other works to such as Education Week, Americans for the Arts, and other educational organizations.
Described by Sir Ken as “one of the most impressive people I know in education,” Jean was a principal in Oklahoma City for seventeen years and named National Distinguished Principal in 2001 as well as receiving many other recognitions throughout her career.
Jean received her Bachelor of Arts, summa cum laude, and the “Outstanding Future Teacher” award from Oklahoma City University. She received her master’s, also summa, from the University of Central Oklahoma. She has served on numerous boards, as a founding member of Creative Oklahoma, a trustee for the Oklahoma Foundation for Excellence, Visionary Oklahoma Women and founding member of Harding Fine Arts Academy in Oklahoma City. She and her husband reside in Oklahoma City.
This episode was produced by Jeff M. Poulin. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s webpage and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:02
This is why change the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff. Oh, Hola. Hola,
Rachael Jacobs 00:09
soy Carla. It's Rachel here. What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf. And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:14
Why change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started. Welcome to this episode of the wide change podcast, Jeff Poulan. here coming to you live. No, not really recorded with my wonderful co host, Rachel Jacobs. Rachel, how are you?
Rachael Jacobs 00:51
Hi, Jeff. Yes, coming to in recorded format. Hi, everyone. It's Rachel here on Gadigal land where sovereignty was never seated. It's so good to be talking to you. It is
Jeff M. Poulin 01:01
it is. And I feel like we've caught up so many times in the last few weeks sharing these fantastic interviews back and forth. But since we last spoke, and I think since the last episode that we recorded, you have been on a globe trotting journey all about the world. So tell us a little bit about what happened.
Rachael Jacobs 01:22
I indeed have charted this globe, very lucky that I am to have great collaborators who happen to be overseas who I do need to, you know, be in touch with. And so I was in Ireland finishing some wonderful project work that I was doing on a couple of fronts. Working with Dr. Eric appeared solely in Trinity College, working to deliver a project costs are gente that Erica imagined and brought to life, which was language development for recently arrived migrants and refugees for young people who are often living in really difficult circumstances. And these programs was both rich in language development, but also brought so much joy to their lives. And also, I was working with Michael Finneran, who's been a guest on this show as well on why change working on creative justice. So looking at all the ways that creativity can have a justice impact. And in particular, I was investigating this really fantastic trial they're having in Ireland, of a basic income for artists. So a number of artists are receiving a basic income from the government to make art, how fantastic.
Jeff M. Poulin 02:40
I love that. And oh, boy, do I need something like that right now? No, I, you know, in all seriousness, I spent a lot of time in Ireland, I did my master's degree there. And the innovation around all the things that we talked about supportive artists, and the cultural industries and creative practices, particularly in schools is, is really interesting. I mean, there's certainly a lot to critique. But there's a lot that can be learned. And, you know, it's great that you got to sort of immerse yourself in that for a little while and really explore the things that they're trying over there. I wonder how it compares to some of the items that are happening in your world in Australia and mine in the US?
Rachael Jacobs 03:24
Yeah, I think what's interesting, I'm trying to put my finger on it, because you know, when you're there, and you're talking about things like things like a trial for basic, or basic income for artists, and you're thinking I got you want somebody listened. That was a good idea. And people listened. And now they're trying it, and they're researching it, and it's coming back really positive. It sort of blows my mind. And then I'm trying to isolate what it is about Ireland where this is possible. And what I've isolated is, firstly, the scale is that scale is manageable, that you can innovate. But I do think that there's a lot of bravery there as well, is that that scale, could lead people to walk down the wrong path saying no, we are too small, our resources are too scarce. We can't afford to try innovative, you know, positive moves like this. That while are so fantastic. There's definitely an element of risk there. But instead, there is this I find this cultural bravery, where they're willing to go you know what, I'd like to be a world leader. And honestly, that's just some thinking that sometimes just isn't that common in my world, I'm afraid.
Jeff M. Poulin 04:41
I totally agree. And those two words I just I wrote them down in my notes just now scale and bravery, which seem to be I don't know, a theme lately with some of the folks that we've talked about on this podcast, and especially in the conversation that I hope to share today or that I will share today. I'm with Jean Hendrickson, who is a longtime friend and mentor of mine. And that idea of sort of deeply integrating the arts in the case of Ireland, they're doing it with, with the economy and with healthcare, which I know we've talked about in the past and with justice, justice approaches, particularly in terms of funding and access, you know, but also as Jean will talk about in the interview with education and and not just the pedagogical aspects of education, but like the whole experience of family and community engagement and school culture and things like that. And that idea of scale, and bravery is something that I want to hold on to. So maybe that's the lens we listen through, if you will, the interview.
Rachael Jacobs 05:46
Yeah, let's keep that in mind and have a chat about
Jeff M. Poulin 05:49
after. Okay, let's do it. Welcome, Jean, I am so thrilled to have you on the Why change podcast. We first connected over 10 years ago, which is wild, when I was writing my master's thesis, what I was exploring was the implementation of arts friendly public policies. And actually looking at Oklahoma in the context of the United States, as I was studying in Ireland in the context of the EU, which was a bit of a homecoming because I went to college here, and we connected, so I could learn more about your work through the Oklahoma A plus Schools program. And here we are 10 years later, still connected, doing similar work, conspiring together to advance arts integration in schools and community based organizations and museums all over. So I'm so excited to introduce you to our listeners and to dive into some of these topics. So thanks for being here.
06:53
Oh, happy to be here. Jeff, great to see you.
Jeff M. Poulin 06:55
Absolutely. And see you in person. We're actually sitting together in jeans study in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, which is always great to be back. But before we dive into your whole career as a teacher, and principal and statewide organization leader, I'd love to go back a little bit to your backstory. So today you work in arts, education, policy, funding, knowledge sharing, how did you get here? What's the story?
07:24
Well, I don't know how far back you want to go. But I will just tell you, I was raised in a home that loved music and the arts. And my mother was a music teacher, she wrote plays, raised in a little bitty Texas town. So I got to perform plays that she would write for our school. And she played piano and I took music lessons and you know, that kind of thing. So music and reading and the arts and theater, they were always part of our lives growing up. So they were just natural means of expression. And as I got older, particularly piano was not only something that I could cultivate and get better at and watch myself do and love. But it gave me comfort in ways that could help comfort me in times of need and that kind of thing. So the arts have been part of my life and my children's lives from the first. So when I decided that I should look at becoming a teacher, and had two kids of my own already. By that time. It was natural for me to just incorporate the arts into everything I did. I started teaching in Oklahoma City with a third fourth grade class split. So it took a lot of creativity to try to keep things going and interesting and on level and have meaningful projects that people could collaborate on. So I got firsthand sort of trials, just you know, by being a teacher. And after a few years doing that, and realizing that, you know, there was a lot more influence and a lot more to do that I could do if I had more training. And so with the encouragement of my band principal, I went back to school night school, taught during the day and got my master's then in administration in one year. And then was hired as an Arts in Education Coordinator and Putnam City Schools. And mainly because nobody picked up my application that I was applying to be a principal. So that was a huge blessing because I spent that period of time learning about how really the arts could be incorporated systematically in schools and that there were people, there were organizations, there were networks with the expertise I didn't have, but that I admired. So that helped me cultivate a network of true arts educators through the Oklahoma Arts Council that I've sustained throughout the rest of my life really. And from that jumping off point, I got a job with Oklahoma City Public Schools as a principal. And really, you know, the schools were, I was in three different elementary schools over a period of about 17 years. The first school was a, a very diverse school, but with a lot of poverty. And what I saw was a way to bring really some some. So this part, you have to put some energy at a way to bring some life and energy to a school through arts education. And we wrote for some grants, we got some artists in residence. And we also got a state grant that allowed us to do more in depth training with teachers. So I learned early on that you can train people who are willing to think differently, because they're not getting the results they need. And we had good success there. I went from Hawthorne Elementary, to then quail Creek Elementary, which is at the edge of the country club, in Oklahoma City, and it has everything that all the other Oklahoma City Schools had, but what the district couldn't provide the community could. So parental involvement was high. Community involvement was high. Kids had a lot of opportunity in the arts, particularly after school. But Jeff, there were just as many kids who needed personal attention, who weren't quite getting it the way it was being taught, that we could see that if we were more strategic in using the arts to teach, we could capture more kids and make them more successful. So we did a lot in the arts, in school, in quail Creek, that really uplifted all of the kids who went to that school.
Jeff M. Poulin 12:43
You know, I sort of love that come up story. And the specific piece that is really sticking with me is the piece where you applied to be a principal, but ended up as an arts integration specialist, specifically because of what you learned in that time. So a few weeks ago, I was actually on the podcast with Michael Anderson, who runs the Create Center at the University of Sydney, in Australia. And he talks about the four C's of school and education transformation, wrote a couple of books, and one of them really specifically is about this connection of creativity, not only in how we integrate, you know, the arts and culture and creative subjects with other subjects in the classroom, but also in our approaches as educators and then as school leaders to solve the challenges that are facing students and communities and, and look at those systems and learn how to sort of operate within them. And so that we as artists, I might put you in that camp as an artist with your piano background is we can use our creativity to focus on education, transformation, and school transformation, alongside pedagogical transformation. And that's actually something that I love in your book where you actually talk about your time or you reflect on your time being a principal and then organization leader, and we'll get to the organization in a little bit. But I highly recommend the chapter in Jeanne Diaz and Martha Berry McKenna's book, which is called Preparing educators for arts integration. And you talk about Oklahoma A plus schools and the model and, and the whole school reform. So can you talk a little bit about transitioning from being a principal to running that organization and what Oklahoma A plus schools model is
14:33
yes, I love to talk about that. So the doorway for that was my third elementary school and I was asked to take Mark Twain Elementary in Oklahoma City. After six years at Quail Creek, and the they were on the opposite end of the demographic spectrum spectrum. Mark Twain was at that time a fourth generation poverty school. It had a large immigrant community that was very fluid. And it also had a large white community that were basically descendants from a group of people who participated in the Land Run in 1889. And on April 19 1889, there was a city of 10,000 people here in Oklahoma City when there were no people really the night before. So and you know, a shot was fired at noon that day, and people ran for land, and not everybody got it, and for whatever reasons that we could talk about sociologically, you know, psychologically, etc. But they landed somewhere, and a lot of them landed in the area that was called Mulligan flats, which is where Mark Twain Elementary is located. Westlawn Gardens is the name of the association now. So basically, I was asked to go to Mark Twain and to use some of the same strategies and techniques that we had used at Quail Creek and uplift that community, they needed to have faith in themselves, they need, they were demoralized, they were exhausted. It's hard work, teaching fourth generation poverty families. And so I went to Mark Twain. And what I saw there was such a stark difference from either of the other schools that I had led, there was graffiti on every vertical surface. When I walked up to that building in June of 1999. There were waist high weeds in the parking lot. There was a broken down big toy on the playground, there were chains, but no swings, hanging swing seats hanging from it. Inside was no better. The there was graffiti and obscenities carved into wood. There was trash. I mean, it was not the kind of place where you and I would want to send a beloved child that we knew. And so I basically asked people the question, do you believe the kids at Mark Twain elementary deserve the same kind of education my kids at Quail Creek are receiving? No one told me now. So we got to work. And what I also understood and told my crew is my first thought was not what this place needs is a strong phonics program. It needed revitalization. It needed beauty, it needed value, respect, it needed the arts. And so I recruited and listened to what the problems were we got together and decided to really invest in ourselves and the arts and, and turn the place around. So we went from having a school where there were there was a PTA there were 35 members, but two of those people were parents. The rest was school staff and a couple of community people. So in four years, we went from having the school I've described to winning an award with Oklahoma City Beautiful for the transformation inside and out. A PTA with 100% parent participation, an active arts cadre that did incorporate arts integration across the grade levels, and productions that we would put on plays and songs and music and happiness. Lots of good things happened and it was none of it easy. But what happened while we were doing that, is we got an invitation from the Kirkpatrick foundation to be a part of an investigative team looking at how can we find school reform models because that was the language at the time school reform? Where's the school reform model that takes the whole school not a piece of the school number one uses the arts as part of its reformed model, and has researched to backup that it's doing some good and they found a fledgling model in North Carolina called a plus schools. And they had started as a research project from the Kenan Institute for the arts that it just simply ask a question there of what would happen in schools if you took the arts seriously. Would there be any difference in this what would they be? And they recruited 25 schools from across that state, rich, poor, urban, suburban rural, and they the quest Didn't was Will you stay with us for four years, because if you don't, we don't have any valid research findings that we can use. So they got that commitment. And four years later, what they found was that the schools had
20:20
performed as well or better on standardized test as the state as a whole. And that was at a time when everybody's test scores were going up, because they had to. So even in that environment, the a plus schools, in their four year study did really well, that other things were happening. They were more joyful places, there was teacher retention, there were was parent involvement, there was the active kind of cultural vibe that when you walk into a healthy school, you feel it. That was happening. So about that time, Oklahoma asked that question of Where's a model that has some research. And so what we discovered was, they had just asked at the end of their research, what is it then that is different, what has happened here, with the addition of the arts, and with the addition of training, for arts integration, that has made the difference, you're rich, you're poor, you're north, south, east, west, you are urban, suburban rural, what holds you together. And together, that group of practitioners designed the eight A plus essentials. So what they found was a framework that held the set of commitments that each of those schools had made, in order to do the work and to get better through the arts. So the a plus essentials framework is eight commitments that the schools have to make. And that's what I found, when we did an investigative run to North Carolina in the summer of 2001. I was embedded in a school team that was going through summer training, which is part of the model, the whole school. So we had the principal there, we had the fourth grade teachers, we had librarians, counselors, front office staff, everybody engaged in a week long training. And they committed to eight things. And those eight things were the first one was the arts, you must commit to the arts for every child, and then learn ways to bring that to ally curriculum, you must commit to a connected rigorous curriculum that is shared inside and outside that school, and is held to high standards, you must commit to experiential learning for the third essential so that kids have hands on real world experiences where they can express themselves and be creative in their learning. And then multiple learning pathways. That is where you commit to understanding we all learn in different ways we have different strengths and different ways of knowing. So we need to engage those learn about those as instructors, as teachers, as principals and parents, and help cultivate students expression of what they know in different ways. The fifth essential ban was enriched assessment. And that just means if you're going to have school that uses the arts and curriculum and experiential learning and multiple learning pathways, you can't know what a child knows, with one test one day one way. So enriched assessment gives you a menu of choices for assessing what the student knows, so that the student, him or herself knows, and the teacher knows, then the next essential is collaboration. And collaboration, again, is a commitment. It's not something that happens when you just feel like it. It's deliberate. It's planned, it's expected. It's at all levels. So student to student student to teacher, teacher to home, front office to classroom, collaboration is the way that you can have continual learning. Then the seventh essential is the infrastructure, how does a school use its space, it's time and it's resources to create the environment that allows those essentials to flourish. So you commit to doing that and And then the eighth essential is climate. And it's almost a bipod product. It is where teachers feel empowered to teach students feel empowered, valued to learn, parents are seen as valid partners. The people want to be there, there's an active learning vibe. So that set of eight Essentials is what a team of us investigated when we went in 2001. And what it meant for me was, I had found the framework, I had been looking for my entire professional career. So I came back and then Luzia stick. Yes, it made sense. I love sequence. I love logic. It's not just as we said, it's not just about dancing with scarves, we are actually structuring a learning environment, using commitments we hold each other to, to make things better for everyone who touches that school.
Jeff M. Poulin 26:07
And those essentials have really stood the test of time, it's more than 35 years at
26:13
this point it five is when North Carolina started. And the essentials came into being organically. So they've been in use in schools across the world now, Jeff, since 2001,
Jeff M. Poulin 26:29
and you've really been an evangelist for this model. In fact, actually, I want to quote someone who probably most folks on this podcast have read, which is Sir Ken Robinson, who called you one of the most impressive people he knows in education, oh, my goodness,
26:43
I could not believe when I read that sentence in his book, he's very calm.
Jeff M. Poulin 26:48
I love that. I love that. But tell me a little bit about how those essentials impacted the work that you did, in sort of creating a movement across the state of Oklahoma and really, you know, largely across the country, as there's many a plus states and sites and things like that, you know, perhaps it's through the lens of, you know, essentials or commitments that we all in education should have not just a school, but for education reform in general.
27:17
And that's really the approach. And honestly, it doesn't matter at what scale, you're asking that question. Whether it's in a classroom to or group of teachers, a group of schools, a community, an organization, the idea is that we need to be listening to people first and understand what it is they want for their kids. So we ask people, and Jeff, I've done this, really around the world. So Doha, Qatar, or Meru, Kenya, they're in South Africa, which I didn't get to go. But there's a, a really hearty network of A plus schools in South Africa. So it's not just the United States that has benefited from this approach. But if you picture a child that you personally love, and you begin to list out that attributes of the kind of school you want that child to attend, and you write those things down, you and I can take that framework of eight essentials. And we can sort what you say, into those eight categories. We want safe places for school. To be that's climate, we want there to be a rigor so that my child is actually learning things of substance. So the arts, all of those curriculum, experiential learning, we want there to be beauty, we want my I want to be a part of my beloved ones, educational experience, those those kinds of things that we want to see for people, we love, our universal. And so the framework makes eminent sense around the world as a way to do school. And then the beauty of that, like I've said, you know, there's so many variations of the type of school community. Mark Twain became one of the first eight plus schools in Oklahoma, in the year 2002. Quail Creek came into the network a few years after that, and they are both, even today still a plus schools. And that's because while you can commit to the arts every day for every child, if your your community has a set of resources that other communities may not, so how You fulfill that commitment is dependent upon who you are and where you are. And I don't tell you how to do that, I help you to cultivate the conditions in which you can do that.
Jeff M. Poulin 30:12
You just said some of the words that I love the most cultivate the conditions and finding the context. So, you know, really, as you've moved on from being a principal, and even being an organizational leader, I think your official title with a plus is Director Emeritus. You really focused on some of the systems change. And in fact, we've worked together on a few projects over the past 10 years or so focused on those bigger questions of policy and funding and, and theory. But what you just talked about is that it really starts with like, one person, right? So if someone wanted to get start started in this journey, what would be your advice?
30:53
Well, I mean, listen to the podcast, find where you can connect with someone who can provide information, there is a process in each of the a plus states for learning more, it's a sequential set of experiences that you can participate in. It's it was different in that way to Jeff, and that, we ask that you learn more about what it is you're actually committing to before you say yes to it. And so there is a set of activities and learning opportunities that go along with a plus schools. But basically, you know, in this day and age, there's not much of an excuse for not knowing how to get started because Google it, and, you know, connect with me and so many others. Now, in the for statewide networks, we have a national A plus schools consortium website, that can connect you with many other budding networks across the country. Come see us come participate, do it online. There are lots of opportunities. As I say, you know, we have sisters in South Africa, now very active, there are active organizations in Switzerland. I mean, it's just, there are lots of ways to find the connection, and began to be in community, with the people who are doing the work and learning as they go.
Jeff M. Poulin 32:36
And we'll drop all of those helpful links in the show notes. You know, Jean, as we talk to folks all around the world that are doing this type of work, one of the things that we've learned in the first two seasons is that it is hard work. And sustaining yourself is just as important as sustaining the work over time. And so we've actually put together a few short, rapid succession questions that we want to ask you to learn a little bit more about what makes you tick, what keeps you going doing this work for all of these years from teacher to principal, to coordinator to organization leader, and now, a plus schools evangelist. So I want to ask you five questions in quick succession. To learn a little bit more about you and your work today. Are you ready? I think so. Let's try. All right, first, who inspires you? Okay,
33:31
so that is such an open ended questions, that one's harder to do fast, because there are all of the, you know, the giants in the field. Sir Ken Robinson, although we lost him two years ago, is still a huge inspiration in terms of personally. And Jeff, not, because we're doing this podcast, you inspire me, there is the vigor the youth, the seeking of the same goals of that is so inspirational to someone who's been doing it for decades. The teams, ultimately, it is the students that give me the most inspiration, because when you can see that twinkle in their eye, that's when we know we need to keep at it, keep doing it.
Jeff M. Poulin 34:20
What keeps you motivated? Yeah.
34:25
The progress keeps me motivated, projects that matter. And if you are motivated, and you're willing to participate, you can find those projects. And of course, you're again, a good example of someone who does that. So that is a huge motivator connecting with the fresh and the new and the tried and the true. So that multi generational banter about where we are and why we're doing what we're doing, definitely is very motivating.
Jeff M. Poulin 35:00
Where are you most grounded? Yeah.
35:05
I think I have to take a privilege and lecture everyone here that being grounded means finding personal space to. And so the place I am most grounded is where you and I are talking and it is my home. So retreating, and reflecting is a big part of continual learning, and in staying fresh and motivated. So that's huge. And then the other place where I am the most grounded, is in any setting where I get to personally witness someone's aha moment. grounding?
Jeff M. Poulin 35:51
How do you stay focused?
35:53
Who said I stay? I think what I try to do when approaching any new project, or in the middle of a project and needing to kind of redirect is to stop and remember, what is it I am good at. And when I sent her back on what I believe I bring, it allows me then to focus more on what I need from someone else. You don't have to do everything, you don't have to know everything, focus on what you do best, and connect with those who do that, too.
Jeff M. Poulin 36:35
And lastly, why change?
36:38
Well, as we know, change is a part of life. If there's this continuum, you're changing, and you're living. And the other end of that continuum is that you're dying. So just because it's way more fun to be living. That's why and nothing stays the same. So if we do not attach ourselves to that youthful energy, there is no progress. There's just none. All you're doing is looking at old pictures in an album, which is fun, but it's not productive. So we must connect and change, because that's what life is. And it's so invigorating to just get on that wagon. And rather than asking why ask, why not? And how?
Jeff M. Poulin 37:37
Well Jean, thanks so much for being on the Why change podcast I you talk about youthful invigoration and I feel like those are two words that I certainly would use to describe you and all of our collaborations. Both so appreciate you sharing all of your stories and insights with all of our listeners on the wide change podcast. Truly, thank you.
38:00
Thank you for having me.
Jeff M. Poulin 38:11
And we're back. Okay. So, Rachel, before I share any of my thoughts, full disclosure, I've known Jane for a really long time back to when I went to my undergraduate degree in Oklahoma. And then in graduate school in Ireland, as I mentioned before actually studied and compared and contrasted what they were doing in Oklahoma, to what they were doing in Ireland. So Oklahoma within the context of the US and Ireland within the context of the EU. And I've just been a big fan of jeans work. And so when I was able to be there for a project and connect, it was amazing. But I'm not going to share my thoughts on her work at all. I'm curious what you thought what you learned what insights you gained from hearing her story.
Rachael Jacobs 38:53
So first and foremost, somebody who's never met Jean, and has only you know, observe from afar and listen to this beautiful interview. Jean just sounds like the most gorgeous, gorgeous, fantastic human alive, the voice in itself could just lull me into this creative stupor. And the way that she invites people so warmly, to engage with her ideas around education, I think is so refreshing. And there's so firstly, I I'm just going to imagine, Jeff, that that your experience of Jane is just as this wonderful human being that exists, you know, in my mind and imagination. Yeah,
Jeff M. Poulin 39:37
that is so true. I mean, the reality is, is we continue to do things together big and small, hard and easy. And, you know, find different ways of collaborating because of genes nature. And I know on the podcast in the past, we've talked about this sort of intergenerational collaboration and the importance of mentorship and the cyclical mentorship where mentors Isn't mentees learn from each other? And Jean exemplifies that. And let me just paint the scene too. We were also sitting in her home, you know, how often do we get to do these interviews face to face. And in sort of this, this space, surrounded by art, every piece had a story it was it was wonderful. And your, your reading is right, she's an amazing human.
Rachael Jacobs 40:22
Well, that is a gift. And she's an absolutely gifted, he's a gifted education. And let's go back to the scale. So what has impressed me is that this knowledge, this, this deep knowledge that she's developed, and things like that these models, these frameworks and things like that, it was not just to be confined in the US or not just to be confined in her home state or something like that. And I know that it's often such a struggle to replicate some of the good work that we can do at home. But this has managed to transcend that that we're talking international reach here. That that's really phenomenal. It's really, really phenomenal. And there are really not a lot of frameworks that are able to boast that kind of reach. And it's in context that a lot of people might write off and say, Oh, that's really different, that wouldn't work there and things like that, which is just ignorance, but Jane refuses to give into that. And I think that's, that's, again, really, really admirable.
Jeff M. Poulin 41:26
I totally agree. And I think the scale is, is coupled with and almost even I might argue, like inseparable from bravery, right, you know, in jeans story to hear the bravery of, of trying this, you know, at the time new and I'm doing air quotes, you know, new pedagogical approach of arts integration, the articulation of that, to these this framework where the arts are at the core and the commitment to evolving that framework over time, the dedication of principles and having this framework follow them regardless of the school that they're in, be it one that's affluent, or one that is in a struggling neighborhood. The reality is, is that that bravery, to to stick to your convictions about believing that the arts are a central component, and a transformative component of schools and education, and just human relationships is, I don't know, it's something that's really admirable to be and I think that that's what makes the scale work is that commitment and bravery.
Rachael Jacobs 42:31
Yeah, I can't agree more is that is that it's that kind of commitment that makes you makes the scale able to get makes it able to be scaled up and out and diagonally and, and things like that, you know, while recognizing the importance of contextual differences in different places. And now more to the bravery, I guess, is that all of those wonderful things that we know are so intrinsic to a successful and nurturing education, you know, such as I loved what she said about collaboration, that it has to be intentional, it is a commitment, it can't just happen by putting people in a room that's not collaboration, it has to, you know, have this intent behind it, and things like that. But we know that it, you know, we absolutely know that it works. And to finish with the climate, is that what about the climate, and that includes the working conditions of teachers, that includes how seen parents felt as part of the community and things like that. It really is extremely holistic. And I think that requires an element of bravery as well, to take that really, that really holistic approach that doesn't say, Okay, we're gonna put it all on teachers now. Or you know, what, it's all up to this part of the community, or it's actually the curriculum that we need to fix. But it's got this really holistic try. So I just find it incredibly bright.
Jeff M. Poulin 44:04
Yeah, no, I totally agree. And you know, what's really interesting that I was thinking of this whole time talking to Jane, and then afterwards, in my head, I was like, Well, I have to talk to Rachel about this interview for two reasons. And so I have two kind of specific questions to ask you. One is wearing your hat as an educator of future teachers, right? How do you? What do you think can be learned? Or how might we translate this to the repertoire of future arts educators are creative educators to be able to embody this notion of the holistic integration of the arts across the learning experience? I mean, that's something that I think so often, we can oversimplify and be like, Oh, yes, well, we should draw what we see in the microscope or we should dance the solar system. Like okay, fine. That's, that's totally cool. And certainly has been researched and is beneficial, but what about that holistic nature? Like how do we How do we cultivate that in the next generation of educators from your opinion?
Rachael Jacobs 45:05
Well, that's exactly and those things are good. And they are a good entry point, you know, they do serve as a place in which in which anyone could have an entry point, I do want to take issue as a dancer, dancing with a scarf is incredibly rich. And by the way, I just want to make that clear that if you're at home dancing with a scarf right now, or powdered you, you are doing something incredibly rich and nourishing for yourself. So but that yet, okay, in all seriousness, how do we how do we take it further? Yeah, I'm in teacher education, and the next generation of teachers is coming through. And I don't see that what we are giving them is incredibly holistic, it seems to be increasingly plagued with what I call red flag words like accountability, transfer, transparency, standardized testing, and that's at least in my context, which is over here in Australia. So to see something like this, which I would find incredibly useful, because again, if you go into the framework, you're going to find that all of the things that Jean has talked about, are tried and tested and established in research, like the learning needs to be experiential. Absolutely. You know, that collaboration needs to be at the heart, you know, climate that we talked about, that it needs to have rigor, okay, things like that, like, Absolutely, absolutely. It's putting them all on the table at the same time, that is really making it, you know, really integrate and work together. So I think there is so much to be gained here, you know, there's so much that would be able to be replicated or scaled or anything like that with any of my students. I don't think that you need to be a practicing or accomplished artists to be able to appreciate what this is, as well. The entry point for everybody is actually pretty clear. It uses language that is accessible, would be accessible to most teachers. If it comes, it's good. There's something about this, I don't mean this in a pejorative way. There's something about this not non confrontational, yes. And it's some of the work that I do can be quite confrontational. So it was like refreshing as well, refreshingly inviting. Yep,
Jeff M. Poulin 47:26
I totally agree. And you've sort of teed me up for my second question, which is asking you to change hats a little bit, as someone who's involved in politics and policy, right, in this way that, you know, kind of everyone can get behind the notion of arts integration in an arts infused school, or an arts rich school or whatever the languages that you'd like. And then at least the US context, it's, you know, for 30 years or so, public opinion, polling shows that, like nine out of 10, Americans believe that the art should be part of every child's education. So I don't think it's up for debate. But I wonder what your thoughts are in the sense that, like, we have the research, this is a tie a tried and true model a time, you know, time measured and with stood framework that has been used in a number of state contexts in the US a number of global contexts around the world. So then, why is it not? In the public policy? Like what, you know, are we just banging our heads against the wall here? Like, what's the challenge, maybe even going back to our conversation about Ireland, of them, trying something and putting it into public policy and researching it? You know, why in Australia, or the US or other places that have adopted in some circumstances, the arts integration, pedagogical approach? Is it not actually being further adopted and resourced and scaled, you know, by those decision makers that control the resources? I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?
Rachael Jacobs 49:00
Well, my thoughts on this. This is where it gets in, not just complex that it gets frustrating is that I'm going to start that again, because my microphones cutting it out. Jeff, this is where the conversation starts to get frustrating. And as well as having a huge joy for what Jean brought to the table. I've got to admit to be getting pretty frustrated here. Because what we have on the table is yet another model that we know works through a rigorous evaluation process. We have all this research on the table that says that this works, and that research just goes through a plethora of whatever explanation you want. We have it. If you want increased standardization scores, we've got that if you want increased cohesion in your school community, we've got the research on that. We've got we've got really ticked that box. If you want making people Think deeply critical thinking and feeling empathy that we've got that too, if you want more flourishing, if you want, in some cases, some of the researchers has even gone to the extent of increasing life expectancy. It's all there. What we don't have is the political will to respond to this is that somehow all of that just keeps falling upon, is that are willingly willingly ignoring evidence. And this is where I'm frustrated, because I'm like, This is good research every time I read it, and I'm like, This is good research. This is yet another. Another thing to add to the weight that we have for knowing that arts education makes a difference, knowing that creativity makes such a tangible difference. And knowing that it's definitely something that I'll bring to my child's life. Yet, we don't have a political response that matches that. And all I have for that is pure frustration, because I think I'm generalizing. But the world over politics attracts the least imaginary people in the entire country, or even the world. And that pisses me off.
Jeff M. Poulin 51:20
I agree. And you know, what it does, is it It pisses me off, too. But it also fuels within me this, like, fierce commitment to celebrate the hell out of these champions that are like, doing it anyway. You know, like, I think the word that you said is that the you know, the framework is sort of non confrontational, it's things that everyone generally agrees on. And I think Jean is such a person having watched her in action, navigate complex systems around cultural funding or education policy, or what have you, you know, she has this way about her, of, of being that champion, sort of holding her head high leaning into her convictions. And being the voice for this approach to at the time was called school reform today, you know, is actually about educational transformation and, and deep collaboration, and artistic and creative and cultural practice. And there are champions like that, throughout this, this framework, that the a plus model, you know, the it's been in many states and around the world, as we talked about, at each of those places, there's a champion via a principal, or perhaps a superintendent, or maybe a funder, or even individual teachers. And I think that what we can do to sort of fight back a little bit to this non political will, is to really just amplify those who are like, doing the damn thing, and really making a difference in their communities. Because I don't know, when I think about scale, sometimes there's wonderful things that come from scale, but sometimes, you know, things, opportunities are lost when we scale. And in this context, if there isn't that political well, then how do we sort of navigate the space in order to have it benefit the most people at the most local level, and that, to me, is where folks like Jean and and, you know, her counterparts throughout this work, really exemplify what it is that you and I talk about all the time on this podcast. And, and that, to me comes from just the pure notion of like, we just need to celebrate them. How do we amplify how do we get their, their voices and their stories out there? Because I think that'll drive the change that we want to see.
Rachael Jacobs 53:37
Yeah, I can't agree more. I think that you bypass my frustration by saying, firstly, I think a really good shout out to the champions, because the champions of it or you know, the sponsors, or whatever they are, who have said, this is a gap, and we are going to feel it, we're not going to wait for government, we're not going to wait for that day that may never come who are doing it anyway. I really think that's essentially a separate bravery as well. So that's, yeah, and that's absolutely, absolutely worth celebrating. So while we can have the frustration that, you know, all of this doesn't happen, you're absolutely right, that we often lose something at scale. This is when people want to start doing evaluations and maps and sticking them on the wall. Data maps. Whoa. Scary stuff. Okay. So if we want to start collecting data in kind of dangerous ways, that's my assessment brain switching on there. My assessment says that no, that's actually not the kind of scale that I think that we want. What we want is what gene is actually achieving, which is meaningful change in all these different contexts.
Jeff M. Poulin 54:49
Yeah, I totally agree. Well, I think we should leave it on that note. Let's celebrate the the champions and and scale at that most local level that to me is like a wonderful, a wonderful notion. And just to underscore you said, just do it anyway. I want that on a poster in my office. Well, that's great. Well, Rachel, thanks so much for joining me and for engaging in this conversation about this wonderful work. And thanks to Jean, for sharing and for all of our listeners for tuning in again to this episode of The Why change podcast. We'll catch you next time. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the show notes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write us at info at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by me Jeff M pooling. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is Katie Rainey, the podcast theme music is by distant cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.