During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Ashraf and Jeff discuss their latest news and how we remain connected as colleagues. Jeff shares his conversation with Dr. Peter O‘Connor from the Centre for the Arts and Social Transformation at the University of Auckland. They discuss the role of the arts in human development, recovery, and wellbeing. Ashraf and Jeff conclude their thoughts and intergenerationality, the role of the arts in schools, and the social responsibility of evolving our communities.
In this episode you’ll learn:
About the role of the arts in social transformation;
How teaching artists can build and impact communities; and
The ways in which artists and academics can integrate their work to advance discourses for our sector.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
ABOUT PETER O’CONNOR
Professor O’Connor is the Director of the Centre for Arts and Social Transformation, The Centre researches on the possibilities for the arts to create more socially just and equitable worlds. He is an internationally recognised expert in making and researching applied theatre and drama education. He has made theatre in prisons, psychiatric hospitals, earthquake zones and with the homeless. . His work in Christchurch schools following the series of earthquakes led to UNESCO funded research and programme development and the development of the Teaspoon of Light Theatre Company which then worked in Mexico City after major earthquakes in 2017. Peter's most recent research includes multi and interdisciplinary studies on the creative pedagogies and the arts, the nature of embodied learning and the pedagogy of surprise. In 2019 the play he directed with the Hobson Street Theatre Company, New Zealand's only theatre company for people who are or have been homeless, won the Arts Access Creative New Zealand Community Arts Award. He continued his theatre making with the homeless at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles in conjunction with the Skid Row Housing Trust. In 2020 He was presented with the President's Award by Drama New Zealand for his life long contribution to Drama education and social justice. He led the development of Te Rito Toi, an on line resource to support the return to schools during COVID 19 by using an arts and well being approach. Used in 120 countries around the world, the site had over 280,000 page views in its first month of use. He leads the University of Auckland team working alongside the Sir John Kirwan Foundation on a mental health education approach for Primary schools.
This episode was produced by Jeff M. Poulin. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s webpage and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:02
This is why change the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Ashraf Hasham 00:08
Oh, Hola. Hola, soy Carla. It's Rachel here. What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf. And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:14
Why change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started. Welcome to this episode of The Why change podcast. You've got Jeff here with my buddy, Ashraf Hasham returning from a very exciting last few months. How are you, Ashraf?
Ashraf Hasham 00:48
Hey, Jeff, what's up community? Great. Yeah, we got married. Finally it happened.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:59
It was.
Ashraf Hasham 01:00
Yeah, it was so great to have you out Jeff and see Carla, as well, as some of the international folks in our wide change community. It was lovely. We got to have a whole Labor Day weekend full of events, wedding related events as one does and South Asian cultures. I got to do my Bollywood dance with my friends. My birthright as you know. So, yeah, it was badass. What do you think? What were your takeaways? Oh, it
Jeff M. Poulin 01:30
was it was so fun. I loved the sort of deep rooted traditions, you know, I come from a couple of different cultures and my heritage, French Canadian on one side, Italian American on the other. And they're certainly traditions, but it is by no means a weekend and there's no dancing involved. So I am a little bit jealous, but it was so great. And I you know, I was so honored to be invited into many of those things and, you know, learning a bit and participating a bit and really just having a grand old time, and we had, you know, a bomb table of like, awesome individuals that we're celebrating four days. So I
Ashraf Hasham 02:08
got to sit with my Twan Tina, all my Seattle folks that have also been on the podcast, and
Jeff M. Poulin 02:14
yeah, I was gonna say it was a good, good reunion. But you know, it's, it is crazy how the opportunity that we're afforded with this podcast, right, being able to chat with people and connect. And, you know, in some of my own research, we often talk about connectivity as being both proximal and distal. Right. So the way that this podcast brings people together, in the proximal sense, right, like we connect synchronously and have conversations, and then debrief those conversations and share them, but also, in the distal sense of, there's people that listen and have that shared experience, and you know, come to the table, the table at your wedding and say, Hey, I listened to that episode, and I listen to the podcast, and I follow the work. And the reason I do is because of XY and Z, and therefore we have this in common. And it was such a great way of sort of that that table was such an example of the type of community that we talked about when we talk about the wide change community of people that are doing stuff with a shared passion for change in the world. And I just loved that. And I was so honored to be included. And
Ashraf Hasham 03:18
just living joyfully, right, and being able to connect both and put the work hat on and the just human hat on. Absolutely. And
Jeff M. Poulin 03:26
you know, and it's interesting, you said, you know, our international colleagues weren't able to, you know, to be there. But it was very fun, as we posted photos, or our very own, Rachael Jacobs was the first one to like them, and still participate virtually. But, you know, it is that sort of community that stems from this work, and not to kind of hard pivot into the conversation, but it really does remind me of those relationships and how much they manifest, which is the conversation that I just had, with Dr. Peter O'Connor that we'll be talking about today, you know, someone that we've been in each other's worlds, we have those personal and professional connections, we went years without seeing each other and then met in person for the first time, but really remained connected regardless of sort of the time or the location, or the space that's between us if you will, and and that's really great, because I think when people have that similar calling, you know, we do good stuff together. And and that's a lot of what I talked about with Peter. So I'm really excited to share that with you and see what your takes are of his work and of our conversation and how it relates in your world.
Ashraf Hasham 04:34
Yeah, let's take a listen.
Jeff M. Poulin 04:45
Welcome, Peter, I am I am just so thrilled to introduce you to the White Chang podcast community. By way of background we first connected through a number of mutual friends over the last couple of years. Both I Think out of curiosity about our respective work and their interest in just us getting to know each other as I don't know, kindred spirits. And, you know, I feel like in those years of 2020 and 2021, I saw you online, so often that when we actually did meet in person, and 2022, it was like, we're just old friends. So it's just really great to have you here to talk about your work, and to really just introduce you to this community. So welcome. Welcome to the wide change podcast.
Peter O'Connor 05:31
It's lovely to catch up, even if it's just virtually knowing that we'll catch up in person next year. And yeah, it was a thrill to meet you, in Oslo at ITAC. Six. So yeah,
Jeff M. Poulin 05:42
yeah, we absolutely will. I can't wait, I'm going to spend a whole lot of time in your neck of the woods, which will be really exciting. But first of all, for all of our listeners, why don't you tell us a little bit about your neck of the woods, where you grew up? What got you into theater? What about education? And now your leadership as a University? Professor, what what is the origin story of Peter O'Connor?
Peter O'Connor 06:07
The origin story? Well, you know, you can start anywhere, but I guess my like, my great grandfather and my grandfather were members of the precursor to the Irish Republican Army. And so within our family, there's been a long tradition of revolutionary practice. And what that's meant is, you know, what does it mean to resist colonial forces? What does a what does it mean to fight for social justice? That was just something that was part of who, who and how I grew up. Until my deep, passionate interest in theater, as has always been around, its connection to possibilities for social change its connection to social justice. So it was an easy kind of a flick. But I guess, in many ways, you know, origin stories are kind of interested in at one level, how do you end up where you are, my grandfather and great grandfather were involved in those Riven loosened root forces. But I grew up in a family of, of nine. The only one in my family to finish high school, the only one to go into university, there wasn't a lot of food on our table. When I grew up, we grew up in extreme poverty. And so I've always had, you know, a deep D lived passion for addressing the injustices, which which mean that some people grow up hungry in a world where other people have too much. Yeah, I live here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, which is the country which is at the beginning of time. We are 18 hours ahead of where you are, I think, Jeff and Maine in terms of time. So we're ahead of time, but we're also a country, which is deeply connected to its land to its history to its past. A unique place in the world. Yeah,
Jeff M. Poulin 08:28
you know, I'm really curious about that. Because, as I've read, read on your work, and we've done things together, it's so apparent to me both those themes of social justice and revolutionary practice, but also the grounding in the very place that you are, and a deep respect and collaboration with the indigenous cultures of that place. So can you tell me a little bit more about the role of of your work in theater and the arts as a restorative and a community enabling practice?
09:05
Yes.
Peter O'Connor 09:07
The Altero is founded on a treaty which is a partnership between the crown was so it was so part of the British Empire, the Commonwealth, and its relationship with its indigenous people Maori, and that, that that because it's unique in the world, in terms of how we, we could be, there's still a huge amount of work that needs to be done. So there's that kind of constitutional framework for how we are Maori constitute 20% of the population. So it's very different. To for example, the United States or Canada. My wife is Maori. My children and grandchildren are Maori. And so it's a live kind of commitment. And it's a commitment to an understanding that there are more than one ways of seeing, knowing and being in the world matters that much of it's predicated on a Western capitalist structure, which hasn't done a lot of favors for indigenous people or people of color or people of difference. Or however, you might want to split the world up into different different ways. It's benefited, largely people who look and sound like me, maybe without the Kiwi accent, but certainly look at you know, old white men have done pretty well out of the world would be my be my kind of take on it. And, you know, the social justice and the social responsibility, and one of the things about the arts is this extraordinarily powerful process, to open up dialogue, to open up ways of thinking and challenging the way the world is. And imagine imagining different and better than it is. My dad taught me that, you know, education is connection to education. He left school when he was 12. My dad taught me that education was a great intergenerational gift that promises we don't have to be born. We don't have to die in the same world that we were born in. And I think that's, that's what the arts promise. That's, that's, that's, that's the great challenge, you know, what's the point of living? If we leave it the way we leave the world, the way we found that? That's not about making money in the bank? It's about making a difference. Yeah,
Jeff M. Poulin 11:53
you know, that concept that you're describing, really just sort of tees up the next question that I have for you about, about your career, but also about the intersection of both of our work. So for all of our listeners at the University of Auckland, there is a thing called the Center for Arts and Social Transformation or caste. And no doubt, if you've listened to the podcast, you've heard me talk about the concept of creative social transformation, which drives a lot of our conversations here has been central to my work. And I think, Peter, that's something we connected on years ago about this, this intersection about the the notion of, of social transformation, the role of creativity, culture, and the arts in that. So tell everyone a little bit about the center and the work that you all do there.
Peter O'Connor 12:38
So yeah, the center is based here at the University of Auckland. Why Papa tomahto road is its name in the indigenous language. And with US team of 17 academic artists, so we're all artists, and we're all academics. And we live in the space in between, which is always the best place to be in anything rather than one thing or the other to kind of take the strengths from both. So we have poets, we have theatre makers, we have visual artists, we have theatre makers, like myself, writers, we've had dancers, we've got musicians, and we all do practical work in the community that we then research to see the kind of difference that we're making. So for example, with my boy who's just stunning, applied theatremakers she uses theater, looking at issues around the rise of fascism. And neo Nazi nationalisms did some extraordinary work and who made of Germany around that work. We've got Selina tusitala Marsh, who was our Poet Laureate here, who's created a whole beautiful children's book that we use take into schools, to look at issues around racism. And on and on, you know, I could, you know, we've got all sorts of projects that we do, and at the heart is the way in which you can harness the extraordinary power of the arts to bring about not just individual change, but change, which resonates way beyond that structural change, which challenges all sorts of different ways. So one of the ways in which, you know, we've done a lot of a you know, and I've done a lot of work in prisons, and I'm never interested in theater that that rehabilitates prisoners. I'm interested in Word that rehabilitates prisons. You know, the thing that's broken prisoners, I mean, you know, in your own country, you know, most people were locked up in the United States and locked up because the black If offended and some minor drug charge, well, they don't actually need to be fixed. What needs to be fixed in my mind anyway, is the system. And so if I'm going to do theater work and a prisoner, you know, rehabilitating prisoners and you know, rehabilitate, rehabilitate the system, rehabilitate the prisoners. And you know, maybe that's, that goes all the way back to my grandparents. Yeah, so that's what radical it
Jeff M. Poulin 15:28
is, you know. And that's the thing is, I feel like in my work, we've attempted to draw the line between that individual transformation, the community transformation, and then the system's transformation, which collectively, we talked about us social transformation. And, you know, it's interesting, because there's sort of no time, better than the last few years to really look at those interlocked transformations, especially with the intersecting pandemics that began in 2020, with the COVID-19 Health pandemic, and the rise of, of, of nationalistic and fascist regimes and the, you know, violence perpetrated at the hands of the state against black people, and so many more things that were growing economic inequality, and climate crisis, and so forth. So I'm really interested in some of the work that you and your colleagues have done there specifically towards this goal of, of healing and wellbeing in communities because I found it really interesting to track both pre pandemics and through the pandemic with your resource called Torito toy, which I hope you talk on. I'm wondering if you can draw sort of the lineage of of your work from perhaps the shootings in Christchurch to the COVID 19 pandemic, and the lessons that really have been learned that we all should be thinking about in this sector.
Peter O'Connor 17:00
So I'm just I'm just hopefully finishing a book on the use of the arts. It was originally going to be called after disasters after crisis. But but we live in the perma crisis. Now, you know, we never actually get to take a break from one crisis before we land in the next and all it does is like layers and levels and layers of trauma. You know, one of the things you know, and I've been deeply interested in the work of Naomi Klein, you know, his book on Disaster Capitalism, what tends to happen after crisis is that people quickly learn how to spin a buck. So one of the things you know, I've been working with artists in Lahaina in Hawaii, you know, they were still pulling bodies out of the buildings, and the developers were renting family saying now's the time to sell, you know, corporate greed. Secondly, that, that, that most of the time, but after disaster, it's quite extraordinary. The vultures moving pretty fast. So the work, I guess, the work that we've been doing, and disasters, and what that means is that, you know, it's think what attracts me to the work, both as a theatre maker as a pedagogue, Anna, and an activist is that it's, it's, it's kind of right on the it's work that sits on the edge of things. And there's a, there's an enormous need for the arts and those spaces, to tell counter narratives to tell counter stories, to, you know, sort of, and at the same time, you know, the arts, the arts always heal not, not, not, not in a medical sense, not, although there's some real evidence that you know, that that actually, you know, because that happens, that happens. But traditionally, the arts have always been the way in which you heal relationships between people. You seem to get away, why do we sing? Why do we sing together? Why do we dance together? Why do we, why do we do all those things that parts of how we connect our, our spiritual lives, our way of being it's kind of it's, it's, it's, it's part of how we naturally make sense of the worlds after disaster. So, you know, I was down in Christchurch immediately after the terror attack and, and working with kids down there, and finding ways you know, working with refugee communities who are feeling particularly vulnerable and still feel vulnerable and maybe feeling even more vulnerable now after what's now that with things going on in the Middle East, but again, it's finding embodied sense based ways of working, where we, you can reconnect after those kinds of events. And that was really important after, after lock downs, we had significant log debt lock downs here in New Zealand, we had a, quite a unique approach, we had a unique approach to, to COVID. And we were the only country in the world when schools reopened, to go back and to go back with a focus on the arts and wellbeing. Everybody else went back around the world catching up on Lost learning and bullshit like that. And it is bullshit. It gets we're learning heaps during COVID Wasn't the stuff and that curriculum, but most of that's irrelevant anyway. And what they will? And so what we were really interested in was, how do we shift schools for them to be more human? When they go back? How do we, how do they shift to be places where kids felt safe again, now as the arts, so again, that was structural stuff? In many ways, it was kind of like, schools go back? Do they go back being those inhumane factories that that tend to just spin the times testing and punishing children? Or could they be a place where after you've been locked, locked away from the world, you might feel good about yourselves and feel good about being with others. And that might be the primary goal and quite revolutionary work, although it was seen as therapy or, or curriculum work. And it was actually about the schools by their schools are pretty horrible, failed experiment, and by and large, and pretty awful for most children. And so my sense about the arts and schools is kind of like, heading of the moments of joy every now and again.
Jeff M. Poulin 22:06
So, from from that work, in particular, what what advice would you have for, you know, folks who are driving that change in their communities, be they teaching artists or curriculum developers or folks that work in the central district office or community arts partners? Perhaps what what advice would you have about revolutionising learning through the arts? If that's not too bold, claim?
Peter O'Connor 22:36
Revolution that I'm not the only one you know, I think I think it's funny. I think it's true of everything in life. Jeff, you find your peeps as finding new people spying on people? You know. I think that's what's great about ITAC, for example, it's an international collection of people who, at its heart, see the possibilities and, and potential for the arts, not to just be some fringe activity for rich people who go to the theater or whatever it is they do, and go and see the ballet. I mean, I quite enjoy the opera. So I'm not knocking high art. But But yeah, so for me, it's been you know, it's one of the reasons why we could work why we created the center here in Auckland was to was the call or the we call ourselves the castaways way we we've cast ourselves away, to do our thing. You know, we proselytize out there as well, with all that kind of stuff about the power of the arts, but we just get on and make and do. And so, yeah, I mean, my advice is you find people if, you know, maybe, maybe again, we've started with the origin stories. You know, my, my great grandfather was part of the moonlighters, you know, they were the they were the first group and rural Ireland who overthrew over literally, Chuck the, the English landlords out of county Kerry. Check them out, though too scared to operate there anymore. And they did that by banding together. The banding together stuff is so important, you know, like if you don't you can't do this stuff on your own. That's why it's why we became part of ITAC it's why the ITAC seven the night you know, those conferences are so important. Because you get to learn off other people you get to share practice with other people. You get your ideas challenged, you get them pushed a little bit, someone tells you you're wrong. Well, maybe maybe we don't say you're wrong anymore. You know, maybe they just say you could do that better. But you know what the same you know, I've That's really important. Yeah, finding your people I can't think anything more important.
Jeff M. Poulin 25:06
And, and you know, one thing that that I sort of love about just our relationship and banter back and forth is the sort of intergeneration ality of it. I think we have lively, spirited conversations and and if, if my reading of your Facebook feed is correct, you're sort of engaging in this process. At this stage of your career, you're taking on some new opportunities, teaching in other countries and being a convener for conferences. So I'm curious a little bit about your take on on these new adventures and how you're reflecting on your practice. Having done this for a long time, you know, what is what is keeping everything that you're doing up to date and responsive to the world around you?
Peter O'Connor 25:52
I don't know if I'm keeping up to that. Jeff. I like it. I don't know about you, mate. But sometimes this world is like this bomb bomb bullshit. Oh, I missed something. You know, like, it's just like, like, like you miss three days or the newsman and you just out? I don't know. I was really lucky because I fell in love with with the arts and transformation possibility and all that. I haven't cracked it yet. You know, like I've been working. I've been doing this for 45 years. The like, like, that's a long time. And that is seriously a long time. And I still feel like I don't know much. So and that's a really good place to be. And I I read that for you know, I was I was talking to these amazing wahine these amazing women in Lahaina. And they were talking about the work that they were doing as artists in Hawaii, I just sat there blowing up blown blown away by the beauty of what they were doing, weeping actually, with the beauty of what they were doing. And it's just extraordinary. You know, I've got, we've got some, we've got some people coming to ITAC. So laggy Mama is a group of Pacific women. And they work with 90 year old mamas. Who, through weaving, teach ancient knowledges guess what, I get to spend a day or two with them sitting on the mat and learning from these 90 year old mamas. Who knows so much. You know, later this summer, I'm going to do a carving course where you carve wood with a Maori Carver 47 generations of carving and his family. And I'm gonna spend two or three days with him. I you know, it's it's a gift day. What a What a life, man. I mean, it's unbelievable. Yeah,
Jeff M. Poulin 28:02
talk about your generation ality. That's incredible. I, I just love that so much. And, you know, I think that commitment to just continuous knowledge exchange. I mean, is there anything better in the world, especially on this podcast when we talk about, you
Peter O'Connor 28:19
know, I've got a, I've got, yeah, I've got a five year old granddaughter, right. And, and a three year old grandson. They teach me a huge amount, but we were we were sitting around and we were, we were playing some games and doing stuff. And they said to Marley, Hey, isn't a fun learning stuff. And she went, Yes, the best pop pop. And I said, it's the best thing in my life to Marley. And the beautiful thing about the arts is this so much to learn. And there's so much to learn about about its power and potential on what you can do. Yeah.
Jeff M. Poulin 28:57
So as we get to know people like yourself, Peter all over the world. We don't only want to hear about their work and their projects, but I have a particular interest in understanding sort of what keeps them going we know that this work in the intersections and especially on the margins can be really tough and keeping going is something that just really fascinates me so over the course of the Why change podcast we asked all of our guests the same five questions in rapid succession. So are you ready? Yeah,
Peter O'Connor 29:32
I feel like come on The Late Show, you know with with what's the guy who does not leave him on the other one? The cobia question.
Jeff M. Poulin 29:46
Well, I but I'll take it I'll take this as a as a good omen for for these last five questions. So in rapid succession first, who inspires you
Peter O'Connor 30:05
I get inspired by all sorts. But Bob Dylan's boss asked me at two years old, you know, every time he sings a song, it's completely different. And I don't think it's because he's got a crap voice. I just love the way he constantly plays and reinvents himself. So he really inspires me, but the person at the moment who I've just fallen madly, madly, madly, madly in love with and inspires me, musically, is Alison Russell.
Jeff M. Poulin 30:34
Do you know I saw her live last summer? Yeah. Oh, shit.
Peter O'Connor 30:37
Oh my God. Now I'm Siri. i She is like inspiring her. Yeah, totally agree. That song Persephone? Ah, yeah. So, yeah, all sorts of people inspire me all the time. So you know, from one extreme to the other. She's only just put out a second album now. And it's just breathtaking. Like, and her TED talk is just breathtaking. Yeah. So yeah, that's how I'm gonna plump for Alison Russell.
Jeff M. Poulin 31:15
Next, what keeps you motivated?
Peter O'Connor 31:22
restlessness. ADHD, I don't know, I've never been diagnosed. But I've always suspected. Works not done. So more to do.
Jeff M. Poulin 31:37
Where are you most grounded?
31:40
Ah,
Peter O'Connor 31:43
in the ocean. I was thinking about that as the opposite of grounded in the ocean. I serve. And I think that's when I'm most fully me.
Jeff M. Poulin 31:57
How do you stay focused?
Peter O'Connor 31:58
I don't. I don't particularly Jeff. I you know, I'm a little bit of this next shot. I'm a bit of a magpie, that there's the next shining thing in front of me and I, and I look at that and go and do that. I've never had a career plan. I've never planned much. Yeah.
Jeff M. Poulin 32:28
And lastly, why change?
Peter O'Connor 32:36
Well, it's got to be better than this, Ryan. This can't be. i It's as simple as this. I mean, if you if if you're not, if you're not part of, if you're not part of the movement for change, you're part of the of the heel drag, which might cause us and in a world of darkness, really. So check I can't see is and popper picked it up later, you know? Hope is a moral obligation. And I think it's true, you have no, it's, it's immoral not to hope. It's immoral not to fight for change. Because if you're not fighting for change, you're fighting for the status quo. And not, that ain't enough.
Jeff M. Poulin 33:42
Well, Peter, thank you so much for sharing your stories and your ideas. On this episode of the wide change podcast, it was wonderful to share this space with you. And I certainly look forward to continuing to follow your work and to spend some time with you. And we'll be sure to drop all of the links for the wonderful resources and items that you talked about in the show notes. And with that, we'll wrap up this interview. Thanks so much, Peter.
Peter O'Connor 34:13
Thank you, Jeff. And all the best I know, you know, you do really important work. Never underestimate the importance of this work. It changes lives. Sounds very corny, but it's true.
Jeff M. Poulin 34:28
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And we're back. Okay. So Osheroff, as I said, In the interview, you know, Peters, and my work is very closely aligned. You know, there's other people that have been on this podcast like Michael Finneran, or Michael Anderson, and others that sort of operate in the same camps in the same circles and we certainly feed off of each other, but you've never met Peter So I'm curious, your take on this work of creative social transformation and the arts and the role of, of community development and recovery and all of this stuff. What were your big takeaways from his present or his conversation with me? Ah,
Ashraf Hasham 35:16
I love hearing him talk, he has such a, he is such a fun voice, to just say, as a podcast person, this is this was gold to listen to. And I really am also not super connected with the ITAC community, either international teaching artist Coalition, which was referenced a few times in the conversation. So it was really awesome to be able to see the actual connections that folks like you and Rachel and and other folks have been sort of talking about for a while now. Yeah, I mean, I loved hearing about the indigenous culture in New Zealand, and how the Maori are 20% of the population, I thought that was all super new to me, I didn't know a lot of that. And I was charmed in the way that he talked about there being there being the sort of more than one way of being and knowing in the world, that's clearly very indigenous knowledge and indigenous wisdom being brought into our space, he seems very respectful and, and like, it's, it's sacred to him. And I really felt that in the conversation, I really appreciated also how he talked about, we don't have to die in the same world that we're born in, I really liked clocks that quote, in terms of what you mentioned, around creative social transformation. And then, like, really, like leaning in towards the last half the conversation around always healing arts are always healing arts as a way for you to find your people. And it's a way to tell stories and counter stories, I never really thought about the counter story is part of it, to be honest,
Jeff M. Poulin 36:51
yeah, you know, sort of drawing the through line to all three of those points that you just made, but anchoring in that middle one, right, this idea that we almost have a social responsibility to employ our creativity and our culture and our heritage and our arts, if you will, to evolve constantly evolve the world that we're in, right, you know, that that, you know, it's almost problematic if the world stay the way it was, in the year that we're born. And, and that there's sort of some, almost like a natural redundancy, right, you know, like that, there's, you know, people kind of always want to keep things the same, that's like, maybe a natural inclination, and that we have to resist that and build those counter narratives and use the arts to, to expand our own thoughts, I am right there with you like that idea. That urgency, if you will, then the application of our creativity is to evolve the world around us so that we don't have to die in the same world that we were born into. And that just speaks so much to me.
Ashraf Hasham 38:08
And I am so glad you talked about that tension between then the want to sort of stay the same, the draw towards complacency. I feel myself being drawn in both directions. To be honest, it really is hard, sometimes when there's so much change happening to to ground yourself. And so what's easiest, what's the most comfortable, of course, is what you know, and what you know, is what we're doing in any given moment, or how it's been. And that comfort is really something to examine, right to interrogate.
Jeff M. Poulin 38:45
I 100% agree. And I think that the ability to hold that tension, but also sort of be the const constantly reflecting you know, in my work, I talk a lot about critical reflection, you know, this, this idea that we use the past as data to inform our future, right, which, until this very moment, this exact conversation, I haven't actually connected that notion that like that is sort of a radical act of, of resisting the status quo. You know, it's predicated on the notion that, like, you will evolve and things will change moving forward. And that's something that, you know, in the arts, I always appreciate, because that's one of the things that we do, you know, so often we celebrate, like inventors, you know, they created an iPhone, or they created a driverless car, all of this stuff, but we often forget about the creatives who first envisioned that on like the Jetsons back in the 80s. You know, it was always someone's creative idea that sort of spurs the say, the technology, you know, or the fact that we have computers, you know, through AI sort of becoming individually intelligent and that is, again, something that came from, you know, movies and films. and comics and all of those types of things. So it's so interesting to me to think about the capability as people that we must have, in order to hold that tension and recognize that truth because especially man, after, like, the last couple of years that we've had, I want nothing more than, like consistency and routine and write them clarity, because of just the rapid changes, you know, in everything from health to the environment to the politics, right. But that's almost a, you know, silly notion, like, it's not good to actually have everything be simple and easy. And
Ashraf Hasham 40:43
to your point, there is a there is an assumption that we're making, that we're using data to inform our, our new decisions, but a lot of times, that's not necessarily the case, either, right? I love that you mentioned that, that actually that connection into the the research or the studying into something to find the next thing is an assumption that we are putting into it as creatives and artists, but not necessarily built into the next steps, right. Like, I was talking to some evaluation candidates this morning for some consultant work that we need here at the Office of arts and culture, and they talked about that they don't, they don't like working with folks, that, that just don't take anything that they they produce and kind of they just sit on it right, they'd rather work with somebody who's willing to be in the space of change and transformation, always learning always growing. That's the type of work that they get satisfaction out of. And it's important for them to say that in these initial meetings so that they can start their relationship off fresh. I know you do that, Jeff
Jeff M. Poulin 41:43
Oh, 100%. In fact, there is only one project ever at Creative Generation that is sort of a report that sits on a shelf. And we learned a lot of lessons about how to have those exact conversations that you're talking about. But it's also in that same vein, this notion of Creative Social Transformation, especially through our eyes at Creative Generation. And my own research is an intricate balance between the individual, the collective and like the societal, right, so the idea that individuals continue to grow and change and reorganize their own, you know, relationships in the world. And that impacts the collective, because then the collective reorganizes their own relationships in the world. And that impacts society and societies sort of are on this, this train of transformation also. And it can be spurred by creativity. And so that notion that creative social transformation is individual collective and societal is is actually really powerful. And you can't separate that. So, you know, when we work with a teachers, for example, individual pedagogical shift is really important, because that changes the way the school is functioning, which then changes the way the community functions that individual collective and societal and, and I think when we recognize that our individual change journeys are no different than those of our our community or societies or our world, and that it is tied together. And that's oftentimes a huge breakthrough. And, and back to what Peter said, he, he talked about this notion of sort of intergeneration ality right, the idea that we're constantly evolving as people in different places of that journey. And, and that just speaks to me because there are times that I have a big transformation in my work. And there's a colleague, that's many, many years ahead of me, that can connect with me on that. And we both evolve as a result. And I think that's so powerful when it comes to trying to inculcate these like revolutionary practices in our work, the funding or evaluation or program leadership, or what have you. That intergeneration ality is what sort of eases the burden of those hard, hard tasks that we're talking about. You had
Ashraf Hasham 44:06
to find a way to relate and to build upon something that to, to sort of take yourself, step back and know that you're not alone in this, it's just like, I am already feeling like a weight off my shoulders, saying that out loud. You know, there's like a literal sort of visceral aspect of that work.
Jeff M. Poulin 44:25
No, agreed. And I, I would also argue that I think it goes peer to peer like you and I, you know, and there are times where I feel like, sometimes I can just call you up and be like, Oh my gosh,
Ashraf Hasham 44:34
let's just go on a rant.
Jeff M. Poulin 44:37
Here's what's going on, and it doesn't lift that, that weight off your shoulders. And, you know, that's been my theme. I feel like the last few episodes I'm just so thankful to have the opportunity to produce this podcast because that is so much as the opportunity to just connect with peers, be they farflung, you know, in Auckland, New Zealand, like Peter was to me, I'm reading out of the United States. It's or closer by, like you and I are even folks right down the road. That that that connectivity is really important in my perspective, and that's what keeps us keeps us ticket and keeps us doing doing the damn thing you know.
Ashraf Hasham 45:16
Amen. Ah, boy, speaking of things that are intergenerational, and always something that will last, while also looking for transformation, art as a focus for wellbeing in post COVID in schools, I loved him just mentioning that at the very end there, and the the assumption here is school sucks, which I think why would I was actually delighted to hear that from him. And how real He was about about how art, yes, one is always healing and two, is always the thing that that sort of brings that social cohesion and belonging together, while also literally as opposed to the, what was he talking about the learning loss paradigm, I appreciated that I just wanted to sort of push this in here too, before we wrap up for the day.
Jeff M. Poulin 46:10
I totally agree. And, you know, that's such an important thing, because, you know, not to put on my like, professor, but to do that for a second, if you go back in the history of schools, they were these sort of community hubs for just engagement, you know, young people were there during the day, but they also did like dinners at night. And they were places that the community could convene, and, you know, vote for example, or, or do so many things. And, you know, the way that our world has, you know, ostracized schools and education, it's made them places where your right schools do sack school sucks, like, the way that we do it, where it's about Skill and Drill, it's about testing, you know, these schools have locks on them. And the second, the last person leaves, they are closed down, and they are almost lost community assets. And, you know, and I get it, that's because there's violence and, you know, all sorts of reasons, but I think there was like another pathway, which was demonstrated in, in New Zealand with some of the work of the Center for Arts and Social transaction, this, this notion that you can actually put artistic practice culture, creativity, you know, heritage at the center, and they can transform schools to be places of, of healing of social cohesion to you earlier, and they can be these community hubs where people come together. And, you know, Peter drew that dichotomy between the United States and New Zealand
47:38
pretty clearly. And I,
Jeff M. Poulin 47:39
I would agree, and I think that, again, it's that ability for our, our communities, our societies, our policymakers to hold that tension and say, you know, yeah, there's probably some easy and apparent solutions, but what are other ways that we can think about this? What are other positions that the arts can take it? You know, I was just talking with a colleague with another meeting the other day, and we're just sort of saying, like, yeah, it's great that some policymakers are like copping on to the notion that the arts can be good, but the conversation is a little tired. Like, it's, you know, it really is about these bigger, broader goals. And, and it's not just about finding a word in the language where parts can fit, but instead about actually integrating the practice and equipping people with a capability to apply, say, creativity or engage in culture. And be the humans find that human connection, rather than just a line on a page. Here, here, yeah, well, that gives me a good charge for the it's kind of inspiring me to go write a blog or something. But on that note, we are coming to the end of our time. So Ashraf, thanks for joining me for this, this episode and for chatting about the interview. Thanks to Peter for sharing your your knowledge, your ideas, your experiences for engaging in that intergenerational conversation at its core. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in to this episode of the wide change podcast.
Ashraf Hasham 49:16
Thanks, everybody.
Jeff M. Poulin 49:19
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the show notes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write us at info at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by me Jeff M. Cooley. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is Katie Rainey, the podcast theme music is by distant cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation Shouldn't for their support