During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Madeleine and Jeff discuss grounding their work in self-care and prioritizing humanity. Madeleine speaks with artist, educator, and activist Sangeeta Isvaran about her work throughout India and Asia, particularly her actions throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. Together, they discuss the importance of anchoring our work in love.
In this episode you’ll learn:
The concept of Rasa in artistic and educational experience;
Ideologies about prioritizing humanity in our creative and justice-oriented work; and
Techniques for grounding creative practice and keeping inspired.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
ABOUT SANGEETA ISVARAN
Sangeeta has inherited a Bharatanatyam [classical dance/theatre form from Tamilnadu, India] practice from the pioneering maestra, Padmabhushan Kalanidhi Narayanan and Smt.Savithri Jagannatha Rao. She has researched into many performing and visual art traditions across the world, creating her unique Katradi technique of empathy based social transformation. For this she was honoured with the highest national award for young dancers, the Bismillah Khan Yuva Puraskar. She is an empanelled dancer of the Indian Council for Cultural Relations with a mandate for cultural diplomacy. She has also received several other national and international fellowships – Arts Network Asia, Asia Europe Foundation, Asian Scholarship Foundation, Deutscher Akademischer Austauschdienst [German Academic Exchange Programme] – and awards – Kala Rathna, Cleveland Thyagaraja Festival; Prix de la Creation, Centre Culturel d’Enghien-les-bains, France; Vasantalakshmi Young Dancer award, India. A highly skilled performer, she has performed in more than 40 countries over Asia, Africa, Europe, North and South America, where she has also collaborated with several governmental and non-governmental organisations to create spaces for people from different walks of life to access some form of art. She has studied various different dance forms from South Asia, Southeast Asia, Europe and West Africa, creating her own unique style of choreography in many international collaborations.
WHERE YOU CAN FIND SANGEETA:
This episode of Why Change? A Podcast for the Creative Generation was powered by Creative Generation. It was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Artwork by Bridget Woodbury. Music by Distant Cousins.
-
Jeff M. Poulin
This is Why Change? The Podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Estela Rivera
Hola. Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs
It's Rachel here.
Ashraf Hasham
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk
And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin
Why Change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started. Welcome to today's episode of the Why Change podcast. My name is Jeff Poulin. I'm your host and I'm joined by my co host today Madeleine McGirk. Hey, Madeleine.
Madeleine McGirk
Hi, how are you?
Jeff M. Poulin
Oh, doing well, doing well. How are things with you over in Edinburgh?
Madeleine McGirk
Good. Thank you. Good. Well, our lockdown was just lifted last weekend. So I was able to go and see family for the first time in four months. And we all were like, it saved us. It was fantastic. So, we had a barbecue in the garden. And it was like, dreaming of that for a month. So, I'm feeling good. How are you?
Jeff M. Poulin
Actually very much the same. We at Creative Generation took a quiet weekend, I can explain a little bit about what that is next week. And, you know, thanks to all of the scientists that worked on it, I was really lucky to get a vaccine. And, so was able to do the same thing and visit family last week to see my grandmother for the first time in 16 months, and my folks and siblings, so it was really lovely to be in the great state of Maine on the coast by the beach. And it was beautiful weather. It was a very, very warm spring day one day and then it snowed the next which is pretty typical in this time period. But it was that right level of rejuvenation time away. And really, returning to the space that grounds me, which was lovely.
Madeleine McGirk
Yeah, I have the same I'm seeing my grandma for the first time in I think a year this weekend, if the weather's okay, which it’s Scotland, so it might be sunny, it makes no sense, but I can't wait things are starting to change,and they've been vaccinated. And I'm like, oh, we're so close.
Jeff M. Poulin
Absolutely, you know, those moments of grounding and being with the people that inspire us or keep us, you know, in the right space, the right headspace, perhaps, they're so important. And I think in the last year, you know, I sort of think back and wonder- how did we do it? You know, as creatives, as social entrepreneurs, as activists, there's so much that happened. And it really does baffle me a little bit, although maybe it's a little bit of reassurance to know that I can, but you know, without those kind of grounding forces in life, and whether it be a physical space or group of people, it does amaze me that we made it through without those every day.
Madeleine McGirk
I know, it's so bizarre to think of. And I think it's in a really practical level. I live in a very small flat, right. It's me and my partner, and we both work from home. And we both are on our laptops all day. And I'm like, I'm so glad we get on so well. This could have gone horribly wrong. I think a lot of my friends have realized they suddenly hate theres. So I'm like, I am so grateful to be in the position we've been in to get through this year.
Jeff M. Poulin
I have to say, absolutely. Yeah, I feel for our dog, I think she's the one who gets tired of us. And she wants to go out by herself and have some alone time, but alas, she can't go on a walk by herself just yet. Maybe someday she’ll be one of those dogs with a leash in their mouth, taking themselves on a walk. But you know, it is funny. We thought a lot about this at Creative Generation. And, like I mentioned, we've scheduled these quarterly “quiet weeks” is what we're calling them, which is, you know, really sort of based out of this recognition that last year we really, you know, hustled to get all of the work done and no timeline stood in the year 2020 and they all got jostled around. And you know, as we look towards this year, we realize that as there's a light at the end of the tunnel, as vaccinations are rolling out, the way that work is picking back up is significant. And, you know, really important as we work to support the arts and culture and social change sectors. We are realizing that, you know, self care, time for creativity, time to think deeply to get unstuck is really important. So, we scheduled these quarterly quiet weeks. The first one was just last week and it was really great. I know myself, I went home, I saw family. I walked on the beach, I was in a space that grounded me. I definitely did some work, definitely thought a lot and briefed and discussed future plans. And I know some of my colleagues were creating art, they were writing, making music, spending time with others, traveling to spaces outside of their small little apartments in their cities. And it's been really interesting. And soon we'll actually debrief and share what we learned with each other. But that time away is really important. We came to realize that in the last few months, and did some research where we'll actually put out a piece about this soon, kind of cataloging that research that we found. But you know, this was the thing that was a fad in the early 2000s. Google had their creative time. And, you know, other organizations have 20% awesome time, or, you know, whatever they call it. And I find it really interesting, because there's a consensus around the need for this. But we often just hustle and hustle and hustle to get work done without actually taking that moment to step back. And it was funny, because I was walking on the beach, and we've been just grappling with this one challenge, I'll call it ,with a project, and we just seem to not be able to get around it- it seems to be this roadblock. And you know, we could go right with your left wing, go up and go under, there's no, you know, there doesn't seem to be a solution. And I had an aha moment on the beach, truly just walking by myself. And you know, and sent a text message just for the record, no response needed. I wanted to capture that thought so we didn't lose that, and it was great. So, those times are really important., and I'm glad that we did it, we'll see how it works out. We're giving it sort of a one year go, four times and and we'll see how it is. But I wonder, how are you maintaining that in your space, in your work? Particularly in the international aspect?
Madeleine McGirk
Yeah. It's strange for me, because the team is, I mean, we have freelance people who, you know, did a couple of days a week, but I'm the only full time member of staff. And so for me, it started like, I have to feel like that if I stop, everything stops, or like, everything just holds for the two weeks, I would go away. Also, I just love it. Like, I think you and I are the same, like we enjoy the work. So, reminding yourself that it is still work, and you do still need to do other stuff, especially in a pandemic when everything else is shot. So, there's nothing else to even do anyway. I've gotten better, it was Easter weekend for us, just passed, and so in the UK, everyone gets the Friday and the Monday off. That's a long weekend. So, I took those days, which I never normally would do. It was great. I had walks, I did one of the things I love to do when I have time set aside, listen to podcasts. It's been winter in Scotland for like, no joke, six months, it's just been dark at 4pm and freezing and raining. So, we had a nice weekend. I was like, I can sit outside, I can do other things-that was great. In terms of keeping that up, I still haven't really figured out what one thing I think that's kind of lucky, again, about being in the UK is that we get a lot of holiday days, which I know is not universal. I remember I went on holiday with my friends from the States, and they used all of their vacation to go on this two week break. Whereas I think we get something like 25, 26 holiday days a year. So, there is more of it to take, which is kind of a luxury. But I am actually taking it as it is not my strong suit. But I'm going to try and get better because, like you say, I am so much more switched on and capable when I've had that break. And it is so that way that when you're doing something else the solution comes to you. And if you sit and just pour over it over and over again, you just go in circles. So yeah, it's a mixed bag for me. The other thing that's great is that I work with Eric Booth, who I think is going to come on the podcast soon. Right. And he's very gracious and generous with his time. So, if I ever do need to take a weekend off, he's always like assigned me something, I can do it while you're off. So, I'm like, I'm fairly lucky with the people that do enable me to have that time when I need it.
Jeff M. Poulin
Certainly. I you know, it's funny, you mentioned having a good idea when you're doing something different, and that change of pace being necessary- I used to work in live theater when I was living in Dublin. I would see pretty much every show because we'd often have free tickets. I'd want to see the show before we brought it to young people or whatever the task is that we were doing at the time. And I would have my best, most creative ideas about the research that I was doing in my master's degree sitting in the theater while Wicked was on the stage or some other. You know, I think there was a whole set of ideas that I had with Priscilla, Queen of the Desert to drag queens hanging from the ceiling. And, you know, really creative ideas flowing through my brain. But it was that artistic experience or the consumption of the artistic experience, I guess, making me think about something differently. And for me, at least, that's been one of the hardest things is not being able to see live music or live theater, or going to see films. Because that, for me, I need that physical change of space, like I need to sit in an audience, to be in that zone, if I'm at home, yes, we've streamed live concerts of our favorite artists, and we've watched musicals, on film and on Netflix, or whatever, on our TV, but you know, you're in your home. So, the dog has to go out, you have to flip your laundry, you know, you do all these other things, and you're not quite in that zone. So, there's something magical that , to me, has been missing in the last year. So, I'm very much looking forward to that time. But you know, it's interesting, because I think you articulated a struggle that we all have, right, which is the idea that our work has such urgency that we need to be paying attention to it, but then sort of at the same time, too, and I don't want to speak for you, but I think I know enough about your work to draw a correlation between our two works, that the type of work that we do, which is like systems change, and capacity building and national or national or international networking. There's never really an emergency, in the same way that if you were a brain surgeon, or even a teacher who works with students in a school every day, experiences and emergency and so I sort of joke I had, you know, a number of colleagues in a previous job that would say something like, you know, we worked in arts education, they say there's no such thing as an arts education emergency, you know, which is is entirely true in my book. Now, certainly, when you're working with young people, yes, of course, if you're in a mentor role, there are emergencies or, you know, if you have a live event, there's definitely safety and well being emergencies and things like that. But, you know, if there's a typo in an email, like, really, what's the harm here. So, I think it's an interesting balance that we have to strike that goes to this idea of grace, right, we need to have grace with ourselves, you have grace with other people. And that's something that throughout the pandemic, I noticed a lot was that people were just so gracious, that, you know, when timelines got blown out of the water, it really didn't matter because we're living through a global health pandemic. And here in the United States, there was civil unrest, pretty much every other weekend, there was an economic recession. So, there was such grace. And what I'm noticing now, and I'm trying to really temper, is that people are foregoing that grace as there becomes a light at the end of the tunnel, and they're really looking to get back to that sort of capitalist paternalistic approach of just produce, produce. And for us, it's much more about process, not product a lot of the times. I think we need to embrace that grace, and really bring that to the forefront with ourselves and our peers when we're working.
Madeleine McGirk
Yeah, what is actually urgent and what isn’t is something I am so bad at recognizing, because then like, I said, I'd send this email today, so I have to do it. So, I can't sign off until I do it. And I'm like, realistically, the recipient of this has no interest in whether it arrives today or tomorrow, or they're in a different time zone, they're already asleep, is totally like an inward desire to just make stuff happen. Like, it feels like constantly on the cusp of changing things, or of making things better, or doing that thing that the other person needs to make that change. And then you're like, this system has been in place for literally decades. I don't need to change it tonight. Equally, I've gone what if I could build, and I think that is the feeling where you're like, okay, maybe just one more email, maybe just one more hour, and then it's like, 10 o'clock at night, and you're like, oh my God, I did it again.
Jeff M. Poulin
Absolutely. I think, you know, really taking care of people taking care of their actual needs. You know, here in the United States, there's been a tremendous trial of a police officer who murdered a Black person. And it's been fascinating because at some level, the verdict is about systems change and really reforming our criminal justice system around accountability. But, I really think that upon the trial verdict coming down, there was so much healing and dialogue and really care for people who've been through this collective trauma. I mean, witnessing a murder on film, you know, is horrific. And it's interesting, as I think about the role of artists in that space, the art that has come out of that- the the public murals, the theater pieces, the music, are phenomenal. And those aren't about you know, criminal justice reform or police reform, those are about helping a community who's been through a collective trauma process. So, I know you had a conversation recently with an artist in India who does exactly what we're talking about a lot around self care a lot around grounding a lot around community transformation or transcendence, I think is the word that she uses. So, tell us a little bit about who you spoke to and what you spoke about.
Madeleine McGirk
Yes. So, that's actually a really great way to frame this. She is called Sangeeta. She's in India, but she travels or pre-pandemic would travel a lot around her sort of region, doing different work with different communities. I know she was doing a lot of work with tribal communities when I first met her in 2018. She had been working to rehabilitate child soldiers through mask work and dance. And these really sort of hard hitting contexts and just going into them and providing a framework for recovery. And to get back to re-humanizing people and re-humanizing the world and the context that people live in. And so, that in itself gives you a snapshot like the smallest insight into the kinds of amazing work she does. And, I was just having a chat with someone today about how often the word transformative gets thrown around. But, if ever there was actually a really good example of someone transforming work, people and life through art, Sangeeta would be one of the people I would point to show that work happening. She's phenomenal. And I won't speak for her. You can hear her describe her own work now. Yeah, this is a good one to listen to, if you're curious how that can happen.
Jeff M. Poulin
All right. Well, without any further ado, listeners we’ll just let you know that there are some mentions of domestic abuse. And we would like you to be aware of that before going in. For now, please enjoy this interview right after a quick ad.
AD
Join Teaching Artists Guild TAG for their BIPOC youth-led professional development workshops. Teen artists will lead interactive workshops on the third Wednesday of each month through June. Workshops are accessible with sign language interpretation offered by pro bono ASL. They're also open to all and there's a sliding scale fee for those available to support this program on April 21. Join TAG for how you can be a dream facilitator hosted with youth from Arts Core, find out about student centered learning from students themselves. More info at teachingartistsguild.org
Madeleine McGirk
Hi, Thank you, Sangeeta welcome and thank you so much for being here to talk to me for the Why Change podcast, I'm so excited to have you and to generally be finding time to catch up, because I just love hearing about your work and the things you've been doing. So, for those listening, Sangeeta and I first met in New York in 2018, at ITAC which was the fourth International Teaching Artists conference. We were staying in the same hotel and I remember an amazing evening together on the rooftop bar in Manhattan and we were just having so much fun and thinking this person is on my wavelength and I want to keep in touch with her for sure. And since then, obviously the world has changed, COVID has happened and we haven't met back up again. But, hopefully we can do that soon. So, to get started, do you want to explain a little bit about yourself- where you are in the world right now, primarily, what it is that you do?
Sangeeta Isravan
Hi, Madeleine, lovely to meet you and see your face again after so long. It's a bit like a mirage because the whole of last year has been about =COVID relief work. So, it's such a luxury to just sit and chat. Yeah, so basically I was trained from the age of five as a Bharatanatyam dancer. Bharatnatyam is a Southern Indian classical form. And that has been my my backbone, my spine, my wellspring of of knowledge, creativity, experience, whatever you want to call it, though, I have done a lot of other work exploring Southeast Asian, Indonesian, Cambodian, Thai Burmese, as well as West African dance forms and a little bit of experience in Western Europe. Yeah, for me, all the past 20 years or more has been about, about how can I use the performing arts in multiple contexts to make transformations, whether it's an inner transformation, whether it is working with a community for working towards an reconciliation. et's say, you know, it could be religious conflict, ethnic conflict or working with sex workers or street kids or, you know, disenfranchised populations, you know, nomadic tribes. So, I've worked with all kinds of communities with different forms of art, because I don't believe in imposing my form, especially in very fragile cultural areas, like tribal forms, which are, you know, very susceptible to disappearing, you know, but I think what my art form gave me was an appreciation of how much art can go within and connect you with yourself, with the people around you, and you know, the universe in general. And this is a theory called Rasa, which is the core of many Indian performing art practices. Rasa is that feeling of connection, of communication of transcendence of, you know, where the audience and performer keep looping the energy, you know, the audience is called Rasa, one who was able to receive Rasa. So they have a job to do as well. And this intangible connection is what artists are fantastic at. And I have studied different texts as well to try and see how one could break down these ideologies. And so while one could say the performing arts are at times, a wellspring of technique from which one can draw, to create new performances, to create understanding between communities, to create all kinds of, of spaces where people feel safe, they feel happy, and they are able to take one step further in building what they want from for their lives for their dreams. So, that's what I love about the work that I do..
Madeleine McGirk
Amazing, Thank you. And I will be curious to know- was there a point at which you realized that you could use art in this way or has that always been part of your approach to the art?
Sangeeta Isravan
So, I was brought up by my mother, my dance teacher, my dad, everybody was very social minded, we did a lot of social work as children, whether it's just cleaning up the road, you know, a dirty road on in India, as people always fill up garbage, the mother would take a broom and just sweep the entire street, and we would accompany her. So, whether it's that particular action, which is the performance in itself, to you know, my teacher. We never performed in theaters, I didn't perform in a theater, I think till the age of 18, or 19. We performed in orphanages and old age homes, on the street, in schools, because it was about performing, we are dancing, we love dancing, and the audiences are there, you don't really have to only go to the theater to perform. So, we did perform once in a while in a theater or in a temple or something like that. So, I think that seed was already very well embedded that the performing arts does not necessarily belong on a stage, your status does not derive from how well known that stage is. Art is about sharing, right? But I received a grant when I was 25, to work, and study Cambodian, Thai, Indonesian Performing Arts. And when I was there, I really just loved the art forms. But I also saw Cambodia, for example, was coming out of the Khmer Rouge every 20 years, but you could see the impact on the population, the trauma they had been through. And I started working with kids, just because I love teaching children and I, well, this is a little bit of sensitive information, many of them were sold in prostitution. And when I found out it was heartbreaking, because I didn't know what to do. And I'm not Cambodian. And how do I didn't know how to help. And I didn't know what to do. Dance is such a futile occupation and felt like, you know, what can I do to change anything? But, because the kids loved it, they will chase me on the street with my stop going there because my heart was just breaking. And they would chase me and say teacher guru, and they would want to dance. And I thought, okay, at least they're having fun these two hours, right? But then I really saw that there were ways to create bonds to make the group stronger, so that they didn't fight as much, they would support each other, you know, at the very least. And then I saw that we were getting a lot of attention. And you know, that different groups wanted us to go and perform somewhere and solely that kind of made people scared to approach you know, it kind of ever gave everybody pause. And also they could see that maybe at some point, they could go up and that could be a skill that they could perform. So, that was really fledgling, I was just thinking okay, there's so much more than just let's make people happy by dancing for them. There are techniques which can help you kids blossom, which can push them out of this misery but even to give them inner tools to work with themselves and life skills, you know, confidence. So, there was a huge journey in those three months that I went through. And that was, I think, a huge turning point for me, I think sometimes I say my, my life before Cambodia and after Cambodia,
Madeleine McGirk
That's amazing.
Sangeeta Isravan
Because this particular trigger, and that's when I looked at my art form, and I discovered that some of our oldest verses that we will just recite by rote, because they would tell us, the basics of our form actually have very deep philosophies embedded in them. One of them I would like to mention, because I think we sometimes only use these verses as a performing art technique, but you don't realize that it's a life technique right. So, it says where the hand goes, let the eye follow where the eye goes, let the mind follow, where the mind goes, let the heart follow and only then you have transcendence. What it is saying is there is a physical movement, and that physical movement is being watched by the senses, is being observed. And then it is being translated into analytical- the mind is analyzing it. Okay, is this a flower, this little thing I'm holding in my hand? Or is this a wastebasket? You know, and according to how the mind analyzes it, your heart responds to it. So, on multiple levels, there is work happening on the physical sensory, the emotional, the intuitive, intellectual, level, these five levels, and only then do we have a complete understanding of what is happening. But today, what does education do? It only privileges the intellectual level, right? It only tells you rational thinking is the only thing. But where does conflict start? Where is our well being layer level being doesn't lie in an intellectual process? Conflict does not lie in a logical process. If you could be logical, all conflicts would stop. Right? So, that's when I realized that this five pronged layered, new way of communication, which is what my art form believes in, is actually a huge tool of communication. And we've used it effectively to work in conflict zones, to work with people in extremely difficult situations, to work with refugees, to work with these kids in education, to work with so many different issues. Just because we don't work logically. Let me explain to you how things should go and expect that person to react immediately. Because this is obviously the logical path, you have to work through so much else.
Madeleine McGirk
Right, and for those who are newer to this concept, or haven't thought of art in that way before, is there an example you could give of the transformative where you can use this in conflict zones, and an example?
Sangeeta Isravan
Okay, for example, it's hard when there's not video, but let's just say the first thing I do when I start a kind of workshop is to set the space, right? So, even if we are talking we're going to, let's say at some point, I was working in a zone where there's Christian Muslim conflict, right. So, we have a huge crowd of young people who've come because I've told them, it's a Bollywood dance. It's about once a day coming here to go to Kenya, give a lot of sidelong glances and bounce their hips about and that's what they come for. So, what I do is for them, like big guys, and everybody is looking at me like I'm crazy again. But okay, nice to open their eyes wide. And you notice that the muscles around your eyes that none of us actually use in normal life as much. So, I'm telling them to use these muscles to open their eyes up and unlike small eyes and big eyes, and crunch your eyes and big eyes, and then I go big hands and big heart. And they'll be like, watch me! And I say the first thing we have to do in this space is we're going to observe each other with an open heart, listen to each other, whatever we have to say, and I do this ridiculous thing where I'm swatting my head like I have bees in it, and I say whether you'll have had or not swatting at all swatting their hand, they're like laughing they're rolling on the ground and laughing and snorting and like you're going to drop all judgment, right? All judgment. This is not a space for negativity or judgment, but we’ll listen to each other open heartedly and dance right. So, the swatting is because I am actually putting in physical form something a mental notion of no judgment, which is very hard. You all have judgments a Muslim or as a Christian, we all have hatreds, we all have these conflicts within us of how people should be a boy, should be like this, a girl should be like that. All our roles, conditioners, expect people to behave in a certain way. So, every time I would see that as a small conflict arising or people saying, oh, girls shouldn't do this, or boys shouldn't do that. I'm like, okay, no judgment and immediately swat my head. And just by incorporating the idea of no judgment in a physical notion, and aligning the physical notion to amend, tag, have fun. They remember the minute they do that thing. They laugh, they release that negative energy. So, you're on multiple levels of very simple exercise like that it’s constantly without recalling them to a safe space and empathetic space. If I just did not put the action in and did not link the action to a fun movement, then I would just be saying no judgment, or nobody would be listening to me. So, do you see what I'm trying to say? The body is actually holding so much tension, oh, man, so much energy and so much potential. So much of our memories. For example, in one workshop, actually many workshops now, I still remember neatly in one workshop I wanted to anchor people who had just come from all over the world for this particular workshop, this festival, I want them to anchor them in this space, which is a beautiful museum. And so I had, I had only an orange with me, I've clipped a bit of the orange and got the juice out and I stood at the entrance and everybody walked in and grabbed the orange on their wrist. Some of that smell stuck. So, the first thing they did when the students circled was smell their wrist. And I kind of did the salutation which is the Indian tradition, when you first start always do an outside salutation to thank the earth. But periodically through that entire one hour session, which was about wellbeing and memory, I would ask them to smell their wrist for that citrus smell right, which is very positive, very positive notes, though we were thinking about people who had left us, right.So, I've done this in Brazil, I've done this in India, even now on zoom calls, I asked people they can keep justement with them. For example, in one particular zone, we add classes by smelling the adjustment together and one of them told me every time I'm thinking these are survivors of abuse, they say no, every time. One woman told me that when I was out that day and suddenly I had this kind of flash, and literally, she had PTSD. And she just found Jasmine, she's melted, and she felt anchored immediately. So, I can tell you, anchor yourself. I love you, you know I love you guys, but adjustment can do 1,000 things more through the sensory, you know, all factory nerves can give so much more than any word that I can say. So, these are some of the techniques, like random techniques, but they're also modules that I've built. I suppose you're working on gender stereotyping, which is huge in India, I think across the board, I'm sure you face gender stereotyping in society. So many of our workshops here in India are that we run are on gender stereotyping, sex abuse, domestic abuse, caste, you know, a lot of negativity. So, the whole module starts with the body- because the way we sit, this position by whether you're perceived as a male or a female, pretty simple, right? The way we walk, the way we listen, the way I hit, everything is conditioned, by the way we place our weight, the way that we position our shoulders. So, a lot of the exercises are understanding how much we've been conditioned, because the baby has not gone through that, right. So, people need to viscerally experience what it is to be in another person's skin. You know, and this is something the arts can do so beautifully. This is such an advantage. And we've done these modules for all kinds of groups now in India, outside India, because they are just extremely useful to rethink many of our perceptions. I'm constantly working on myself in every workshop, I learn something about my own deep rooted conditioning, right.
Madeleine McGirk
Yeah, I remember the first thought that was pointed out to me. And someone said, well look at how the women are sitting and we were all there cross legged and sitting upright and you know, posture just so without even realizing it. And then the term “man-spreading” was shown to me and then we're going back a while now- and my mind was blown. And then I started trying to sit that way on public transport and the looks and the reaction people have to just you holding your body differently. So subtly, it really did invite a lot of a lot of specific looks and sometimes comment. I had no idea that I had been so conditioned and everyone else had been so conditioned. And it made everyone collectively uncomfortable when I suddenly just sat slightly differently, exactly the same as the guy across the way. But yeah, suddenly it broke all sorts of unspoken rules. And everyone got quite uncomfortable. Very strict.
Sangeeta Isravan
Absolutely right and reinforce it as much as men do. It's the women that are giving us looks as men and as much as the men are. You know it because it's uncomfortable. Yeah. Right, because their positions of power, opening your legs and crossing one over the other but your legs spread is a position of power. You're taking space, you're saying you know, I'm confident. I'm seated here. Like sometimes the guys in my head, all these police men in one workshop and they said madam, you're just like a man. And literally like, I am quite well endowed. And I have very fertile hips. No way in hell like a guy. But what he meant was I had my feet apart and weight evenly spaced. I was opening my arms wide and projecting because I wanted them to feel that I was with them. But I understand I was all the love and compassion and positivity. But which comes with a position of power, right? And his interpretation was you're behaving like a man because I took space.
Madeleine McGirk
I can't wait until that seems alien, like in a few generations, hopefully when that's just wild that we ever had this experience. Yeah, that will be an interesting one to rely on later. I want to, I want to ask, you know, because I had all these amazing questions, I wanted to ask you to help people understand your work and all of it. But before we hit record, I was asking you about your work with COVID, and how life had been for 2020. And I would love to have you talk a little bit about that, because you've been doing some monumental work in India over the last 18 months or so. Could you explain exactly what you told me about the kind of work you've been doing for that time.
Sangeeta Isravan
So, India went into lockdown end of March, 26th, I think was the was when we went into full lockdown. And what happened was because it was just arbitrarily announced with barely two days of notice, a lot of people especially from North and Central India, and even Eastern West India, no- East India, sorry, were stuck in other states. These are migrant laborers or daily wage earners, they come to do construction work, they come to work in, you know, you know, brick kilns, they work in all kinds of spaces as waiters, they do all the, you know, daily wage earning with with it as migrants, they come for a few months, and they go home. But now they're stuck. And after two, three weeks of intense first phase of the lockdown, all the money ran out, they had no more money, they had no food, and they just had no way to go buy because all train services, all bus services, all transport was stopped. So, they just started walking. They just started walking like some were in the southern tip of India, and they have to go walk 4,000, 5,000 miles to get home. Right? So, and nobody was there to witness, I think the power of witnessing is what was lost in COVID. We were all stuck inside the houses, none of us knew what was happening outside. Right? There would have been enough people to rush out and offer aid. It had been a normal time. But now how if you don't even know and even if it did, you are not allowed to step out. So, some of us just said, you know, we don't give a damn. We got into our cars or whatever mode of transport we had, you know, cycles, bikes, I had friends just going down the huge Grand Trunk roads, trying to find these groups and setting up stalls where we could distribute food and water because there were no trains. And the government then decided to run special trains to take people back and they opened a website and 8 million people signed up within India at max, 8 million people signed up. These are people who are uneducated, first of all, ask them to go on an online portal and sign up. And even then they somehow found a way we had groups of volunteers, they would call in and you would help them negotiate it and get their, you know, their number that is needed. And it was hugely complex. And for three months, I'm a fairly solitary person- when I'm back home, I rarely go out and meet people. I'm not like mother kind to go and hang out in a pub or whatever. Literally, between April and July and August, I think till August, I would meet about 1,000 to 3,000 people every day, during intense lockdown, because they were just milling about, they would go to the center station because there was no schedule published, they will be hoping there is a train, there will be 3,000 people for a train that can hold 1,000 max. Right. And among huge fears of COVID because again, all kinds of rumors are spreading. There's all fake news, people don't understand what it is. So, the amount of fear was sky high. So, we had loads of volunteers online on phone lines trying to help people get their names and make registers the coordinate with the registers the police and with the local governments in order to get them, you know, assigned to a particular train, then we would call them back and tell them it's assigned, etc, etc. But still there will be hundreds of people at the station and then your riots would break out, right, Because the police don't speak Hindi. These guys speak only Hindi. We don't speak Hindi. So, some of us who spoke Hindi because we learned in school would land up at the station and endlessly negotiate, endlessly negotiate Russia, try to get people to move to shelters if they could not get on the train. Make sure to come through on the pavement or at least have some food if they were on the pavement. Till one in the morning, two in the morning we would be out. And I think what I loved about that time I really say love because I constantly tried to keep my heart open. You know, and I think that's something as dancers we have a unique ability of doing is to tap into our emotions and tap beyond our emotions into that. That space of being, right? But as an artist we have access to you know, in our most beautiful moments, I cannot tell you the number of people I would just look at random the light gives this old man who landed up just off the train had left and he was weeping. His body was covered with bruises, his employer had beaten him and taken away his ID and his phone so that he would not travel home. But this man just wanted to go home. Right. And he was just weeping and and I listened to him. It wasn't about the train, it was just that he wanted to be heard. He wanted to be held, but I couldn't hold him because of COVID. Right. And he was the first person I said this to, I said, my heart holds so much love for you. And so much sadness, grief, for what you have gone through. I wish there was something more I could do. But please get on this bus, I gave him some food. And I said, just stay on this bus and the train will be there tomorrow, the government will put you in a shelter right now. And then tomorrow, you’ll gohome, don't worry. But I think that is the most important thing. There are 1,000s of volunteers working on the goodness of our hearts. But we are so overloaded. Sometimes, you know the time to say I love you, I care for you, I am here for you. And we will do our best. And other than, you know, just making a series of instructions- go, they're starting to slide, do this, the bus is over there, which will be shouting constantly, right. So, that was a turning point for me in the very first couple of weeks. And I took the time to spend extra time in the shelters with you know, 1,000s of people just sleeping outside under the trees, just telling them to reassure them. We would dance sometimes, I would play with the kids, we would sing. I remember howling like a wolf to get the attention of two war troops. And they would look at me like I was crazy. And I'm like, Yes, I might be crazy. But right now you're more crazy, crazy with fear. You're crazy with anger. So, can we all calm down? Right. And you know, we'll get your names down, and we'll do our best to get you on a train. But I realized that I had access to a strategy that my co-volunteers didn't have access to. And that's only because of the part of background that I came from. And even there, you know, that's why I tell constantly, I tell the kids that tell parents, you know, teach your child some form of art, some form of creative expression, so that they can let their soul speak, you know, reach out and not just make life about meaningless facts. So anyway, to come back to the story till August. I think August 14, was the last train that we ran just before Independence Day. And in the Indian Independence Day, and till then we were making lists and lists and lists working with the police to work with everybody to get these people back home. We were doing medical relief, people had medical emergencies, medical repatriation. From someone who had broken his leg, there were 1,000s of pregnant women who might happen to pop at any minute. So, we had to get them home. And people open their hearts, open their purses, we had huge volunteer groups all over the country that were working day and night to make sure people were safe when they reached home. It was really amazing. But at the same time, you also started distributing rations because we had a huge food crisis. The government, of course, reached out and said we will provide rations, but very often that couldn't reach remote communities or migrant communities who couldn't tap the local network of rations. Right. So, we gave out, I think more than 100,000, 150,000 ration packets. We had adopted five villages, like my particular organization outright adopted five villages in a couple of rural districts. And we had facilitators there, many of them traditional performing artists, families who couldn't perform any more in lockdown, right? No performances, and that means no food. You don't work today, you don't eat today. That's it, simple as that. No factories, no daily wage, nothing right. So, we were just, we had huge teams distributing rations. So again, everything in just numbers day, can you say 10% the population needs for 10% of 63 million. You're like pulling hair out. But again, the goodwill of people and the fearlessness and the you know, just the basic beauty of life kicked in, you know, and constantly I will be in tears because of something beautiful someone had said or done you know. So yeah, the whole year was just relief work dispersed by random workshops to earn some money because I was like, basically broke.
Madeleine McGirk
I wonder what the world or what India would be if you hadn't had your Cambodian grant, to go and study, unlearn and have the switch flipped around for what art can do, that's quite something.
Sangeeta Isravan
I'm just a tiny, tiny cog in a huge wheel and other people step up. That's one thing I really realized, if I popped it tomorrow, if I just, like, keeled over and died tomorrow that we have people to take it up. I really feel humanity is at its best in disasters, because we come together as a race, and we don't look at religion and gender and caste anymore, you know, which are default modes when we are at peace, you know, that's when we are joined together.
Madeleine McGirk
That kind of brings me on to my next question for you about the future. And about what do you think we can be doing as people with socially conscious practice and with this kind of understanding of the equipment that art can give you- or can give a person? Where do you think we need to be focusing our energy to make sure the future is the best that it can be?
Sangeeta Isravan
I'm going to give you a little bit of a strange answer, I think, because something you said just triggered. There have always been artists, they will always be artists, because art is essential to humanity, right? I truly believe that. But how we practice art is something I've been questioning myself a lot. And one of the values with which I practice has changed the nature of my art so much. So, yes, of course, it is what you think of if you think of technique, right as posture, that is vocabulary, that is a particular way of moving the different geographies, etc, etc. But what about non-transaction, whatever love, you know, I think where artists can really push themselves beyond is that we can enter the space of non-transaction so easily, because art just means so much to us. Many of us have performed for peanuts, have taken part in a project for no money, maybe just enough to survive, or maybe nothing because of that boundless love and the passion we had for that particular project. And this space of non-transaction, I think, is a very precious space. And it is not fair everywhere in the world today because we are all in this corporate madness, this madness of capitalism, which has its role and its function. I totally agree that we need businesses, we need to keep the money moving. I'm not saying no, but how do we wrap this? How do we get those ethics in place. Again, I keep saying this, when we teach a child ethics, or when a child grows with a sense of ethics that it absorbs from its environment, it just doesn't make any sense, right? But when it's practiced, when it's imbibed, especially through an art form, where the give and take is beyond any normal transaction, which is unconditional, right? When I learned from my teacher, there was no five to six class, I would line up at five and I might go home at eight or nine, I would line up at you know, at seven in the morning on Sunday, and maybe go back at one- there was no question of if you're giving me this much money. And this is the amount of art that I will give you for that money. You know, how do you measure an artistic experience? How do you measure rasa? And I feel one thing I am so convinced about, and I've shifted my practice so much in the last couple of years is, how do I imbue my artistic practice- visibly now, I'm sure invisibly we are all doing it. How do I make it the anchor point? How do I make non-transaction and love the anchor point of even my anger? Even the kind of activist work I do? That is still my anchor. They are not saying you should always be lauded and say, oh, you know, let's all look at the beauty of this world. There's lots of ugly things in this world that we have to fight against today. I agree with that, but I think it starts from a space of non-transaction and that gives it core strength.
Madeleine McGirk
You know, I don't know the answer to the question, but this is something I'm really working out to make tangible for myself and admit that I don't know if it did either. But I'm gonna listen back to it like three times. I can take it all in. Even the idea of love anchoring the anger with a system or the anger with which you have to fight some kind of oppression or systemic injustice, I think is a really interesting way to look at it. It's like radical empathy or radical love is kind of what you're talking about, right?
Sangeeta Isravan
Yeah, for example, I've had these women stay at home the last six months. I think all of us know that the rates of domestic violence have grown because of lockdown after lockdown. Women are just stuck with abusers. And I suppose men are stuck with abusers too, A lot more women in India and across the world face abuse and children too. And we've had many runaways, I've just found girls wandering on the street and brought them home. I have helped facilitate- and I say this openly- and I held space for a couple of abortions for girls who have been raped, you know, and it's not it's been a space of such intense sadness and anger, anger that they're led down or just by their abuser, but the entire family and the social system which makes the woman the pariah. It's sort of like you make your bed now you have to lie or you're married to this guy and we have all these stupid sayings traditional saying that say, you know even if he's like a stone, he's your husband. You know, you're just that's it, you are your life sentence, right? This random bullshit. I mean, seriously, there's no other word for it. It's just bullshit right?
Madeleine McGirk
They ask, why did she stay? Never why did he do it or why does he stay and do it? It's always why did she stay and it's, it just completely misunderstands the point.
Sangeeta isravan
He hasn't told you all the nice things have done to her like that now excuses him from breaking her arm, right, he did some nice things for her. So, she put up with him breaking her arm, right. So, it's just completely on the understanding that a woman is a possession is just embedded, that she is the possession of her husband. And then it's embedded in the woman too. She's just filled with so much guilt that she ran away. Right. So, in this space, I have a lot of anger, a lot of grief. So, what I do is I have the bedroom they stay in, I have made sure that this is a bedroom with two windows, huge windows, I have filled the room with plants. So, they get up and I come and wake them up and we water them together. We talk about all kinds of things without touching on the subject, they want to talk about what they went through, they have the right to do so much of centering. I do so much or I really have COVID or no COVID they need to be hugged, right. So, so much of the love and the positivity is essential in order to even fuel their anger, make that anger so strong that she says he is a bastard and I will not go back to him. But to bolster that anger, I need to give them love. If I gave them more anger or negativity, they would get even more fearful. They would be fearing this future where they can own their own money where they're on. They're essentially alone because their families, not even their mothers and fathers wouldn't take them back. Right. So, in order to have the right anger that helps them break free. They need to have strength that can only come from love and positivity. It cannot come from negativity. I don't know if you understand, but I'm just trying to give you one.
Madeleine McGirk
Absolutely, I do. And I'm reading a book about this right now. And so I'm so fascinated to hear it from your perspective. And yes, I mean, I'm a firm believer in radical empathy and that you don't fix anything by judging and shouting at someone, no one's mind has ever been changed that way. No one's behavior has ever really been changed that way for long. So, I totally understand and agree with what you're saying, you just say it so much more eloquently than I'm able to. So, I think this is a good point. I mean, I could listen to you talk for hours. And hopefully at some point, we'll be together again in person and I can. But in the meantime, I need to bring this to the sort of end point that we asked a sort of series of quickfire questions of whoever we're talking to on the podcast. And are you ready?Okay, so, who inspires you?
Sangeeta Isravan
Everybody and everything. There is a point of inspiration in the worst abuser and in the best human being, you know, but right now, I would say I'm, I'm working a lot on Buddha and, and his technique of meditation. So, a lot of what he said is inspiring me right now. But literally every workshop, every space right now, you are inspiring me.
Madeleine McGirk
I have got like 1,000 things in my head to go back and ponder with you. I have like five action points. I'm emailing you right after this. Okay, what keeps you motivated?
Sangeeta Isravan
The possibility of transformation. Every pain is that, is every moment. Every interaction has the potential for radical change. Right. And I think when I'm most aware of that, that's when I am the most effective, whether I'm standing in Central Station, Coronavirus, 1000 people, I know that the way I walk the way I behave the way I look in someone's eyes, every pain is a potential tipping point for that other person to maybe rethink a point of view that has been toxic till now.
Madeleine McGirk
Okay, and where are you most grounded?
Sangeeta Isravan
Inside, I think in a space of not a space of non-transaction, unconditional love. So, I do a lot of meditation. So I think that's most grounded.
Madeleine McGirk
Thank you. How do you stay focused?
Sangeeta Isravan
Hmm, you're asking someone who cannot multitask. I see one thing I'm focused on. That's it. But again, I thinkI just have waves of love. Even right now, I'm looking at you. I'm like, Oh, God, Madeleine. I love you. I'm just so happy. Yeah, thank you. I just think that everything is is an occasion for us to celebrate that. You know, we have a chance to see each other in the eyes and say I love you, you know the feeling and it's something that everybody needs it.
Madeleine McGirk
Okay, and finally, why change?
Sangeeta Isravan
Actually, the question according to me is not why change, change is inevitable. change is happening as we speak, I'm getting a few more white hairs. And you know, I am what we have just spoken about in the last hour has changed me, I know, for the next days, I would be influenced by that. So, why change- change is inevitable. But can we be alive to the change that is happening and make it something, something that's precious? And that's what? Right? So, it's not why change, it is what change do I want? How can I be conscious of change? How can I grow with and change in a way that I consent to, rather than just be changed by things happening to me and being in constant reaction?
Madeleine McGirk
Right? Completely.
Sangeeta Isravan
Yes.
Madeleine McGirk
Well, thank you so much.
Sangeeta Isravan
I love talking to you, seriously.
Jeff M. Poulin
Excellent, Madeleine. That was such a phenomenal interview with an amazing human being. I am absolutely blown away with the philosophies and the perspectives and the pedagogy. Sangeeta has such a full package. I mean, what are your thinking, what is the most stand out thing that you've come to learn from her?
Madeleine McGirk
For me, the thing that I really take away from, ah, I have a psyche that you can hear her buzzing around to just be talking. She has this concept called rasa, which she cites during that interview, and which she bases a lot of her approaches on is to do, well, you heard her explain it, I won't cover it again. But it's, it's to do with center and all of your approaches on humanity and love and empathy. And what can happen when even your anger, even your activism, which is totally legitimate and reasonable, comes from a place that is centered in love, and I want to do better, and I want for people to be better and things to be better, rather than a judgment of how they are now. And I think that is a concept which is so transferable and universal, and would serve us all really well to remember as we go about shifting norms, is that the people who don't do it already, are still people, and you just have to meet them at that level, rather than come in with judgment. And that kind of attitude. So, she's a great example of that to me.
Jeff M. Poulin
Absolutely. And really, that concept of rasa is, it kind of gives us the, the key to the prioritization that we were just talking about struggling with, right, you know, what is important? How is it important to people? What can we do about it? I mean, I was blown away by the fact that there were, I mean, what was it 4 million people that were essentially displaced when the lockdown began in India, and she as a dance artist, yeah, was out there organizing people to get on trains to go home to see their family, that is the type of, of humility and concern for community and sense of like, applied creativity, right, as a as a dancer, as a movement artists, you have this idea of, of connecting with people and visualizing how things can can operate in a space. And she was truly using that to connect with people. And I think, you know, just to cite the interview, she said something like, it was so hard because I couldn't give someone a hug because of COVID. But, you know, I was able to sort of tell them about how much love I had for them. And and that was enacted by helping them reunite sort of with their their families. And that, to me, is the type of urgency and the type of application of the work that we do that is absolutely essential.
Madeleine McGirk
Yeah, that's the other thing that I'm glad you mentioned. Because that moving beyond doing the art form with people and into channeling the creativity, the art form gave you into affecting lasting, real change. So, for example, in that interview, she talks about lobbying the government to get the trains restarted, right, knowing how to convince someone of something, you have to go beyond just explaining it because as she says, people don't generally act from an intellectual place but from an emotional place. And so tapping into that emotion and convincing them this is the way as well as working with the communities and helping them feel human in this awful context. And creating senses of communities and safe spaces is amazing. It's all the things that you hope is going on all over the world and that you hope people are really taking the time to, to consider and to use their creativity for and yeah, I'm just in awe of her and everything she managed to do. And she mobilized entire volunteer groups, call systems, volunteers, she got trains back up and running it’s wild, but she managed to do it. She's yeah, she's a force.
Jeff M. Poulin
But yeah, it gives me such hope to use the word that you just did. Because I, you know, I really do firmly believe, and this is honestly why, in a lot of my work, we do a lot of documentation because we often can't make the case without the evidence, right. But I really do firmly believe that there are so many Sangeetas around the world that are doing this, that we just don't often talk about they aren't, you know, in the news, or have articles written about them or on podcasts, and I'm so glad that we got the opportunity to have her on the Why Change podcast and to, to hear about the work and she did share, some of the nitty gritty of the work and, you know, like down to the, you know, orange essence, you know, citrus on the wrist that was able to give people that grounding force that was used, you know, across the board into, you know, the lives of people down the road. That to me is the type of creativity and grounding and, and the kind of force of the arts that can be transformative to use that word. And you know, and it's fascinating, because I think those stories aren't told. And this one got told, which is wonderful, but it makes me think, makes me think a lot deeper about how do we tell those stories? How can we share those examples? Because in the same way that we often talk about microaggressions against marginalized folks that caused harm, you know, or trauma. I really believe that there are also micro progressions, right, the idea that there are little things that people do all the time that positively impact others. And we often don't talk about those, and we don't document those. And I think that that's a real shame. And I think, if we did, how much more good could there be in the world? Because then others could learn and replicate, and then it becomes exponential.
Madeleine McGirk
Yeah. What a lovely way to think about that concept micro progressions, I'm going to be mulling that one over.
Jeff M. Poulin
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, that does bring us to the end of our episode today. Thank you so much for bringing Sangeeta to us and for spending some time chatting today. I always have to ask, though, what's next for you?
Madeleine McGirk
Oh, so much, I've been doing a lot of thinking recently about this concept of creating lasting change and beyond raising awareness or inspiring people, but into actual behavioral shifts into actual societal shifts, not necessarily policy, but just deploying our creativity in a way, which provides a roadmap kind of toolkit. And, and so that's what we're kind of doing a lot of thinking about just now. We're about to launch a new climate collective. And we had a whole bunch of proposals come in for our climate project from I think about 35 countries- that was massive. And it showed the hunger that exists for this kind of work. But it also showed some assumptions about how arts create change that I'm interested to unpack a little bit. So, again, I’ll keep name dropping out of this episode, but he is gonna host a think tank for us next month, to start that process to start that conversation and invite people to keep unpacking that together as a working group. So, that's what I'm working on this week. Who knows what next week will be but that's what I'm setting up.
Jeff M. Poulin
That all sounds so interesting, and I'm very curious to continue to follow. I would love to get my hands on that data set of applications or proposals and what those assumptions are. But I currently have way too much research happening at the moment. We are writing, I am due to write like a whole doctoral dissertation’s worth of words in the next couple of weeks. Between several reports that we have coming out, a lot of projects are wrapping up. That concluded at the end of 2020, and we are moving through some new ones that are starting, which is really great. I can't mention them right now. But keep your eye on the Creative Generation social media for those announcements- really, really exciting scaling projects throughout the United States and abroad. We also have International Arts Education Week happening which is the final week of May all around the world, so keep an eye out for that. And on a personal note, it is spring here. The weather is beautiful. So, definitely doing a lot of work outside spending some time in nature and enjoying some rest And outside of that work, you know, like I mentioned, I've been incredibly lucky to receive a vaccination, which has allowed me to actually go back after a full year, after a full 12 months of hiatus of working with young dancers, which is one of those things that grounds me. It's an organization that I grew up in as a young dancer. And now I get to mentor other folks around the United States, and to provide opportunities for learning and performance. And, you know, peer to peer connections among young people who share a common love of dance and it really has rejuvenated me. I forgot the gruelingness of those hours. I haven't stayed up that late in a long time during the pandemic, but it is well worth it. So, it's very exciting to be back doing that work. And it is one of those things that does grab me and brings me to that humaneness. Right, it'snot just writing a report, a PDF that's going to be on a screen, maybe read by people, maybe not, but it's an actual connection between people. And that is simply the best to be back doing that work. Yeah, so that's what's coming up. Well, to all of our listeners, thanks so much for being here. We hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Why Change podcast, we do have more coming- Eric Booth, in fact, is coming on. And that episode will be out very shortly along with a number of other inspirational artists, young activists, and changemakers around the world. So, thank you very much for being here and we'll see you next time. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Why Change, the podcast for Creative Generation. If you would like to support this podcast aimed at amplifying the voices of creative changemakers around the world, please consider donating through the link located in the episodes show notes. These show notes contain all sources discussed in the episode. Be sure to follow, like, subscribe, and share the Why Change podcast to make sure you and your networks get episodes delivered directly to you, and that you don't miss any stories of creative work happening around the world. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, we'd love to hear from you. You can write to us at info@Creativegeneration.org. We'd love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. Our show is produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Our music is by Distant Cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co-hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support. Here at Creative Generation, we're pleased to use Anchor to produce the Why Change podcast if you haven't heard about Anchor, it's the easiest way to make a podcast. Let me explain. First, it's free. There's creation tools that allow you to record and edit your podcast right from your phone or computer. Anchor will distribute your podcast for you. So, it can be heard on Spotify, Apple podcasts and many more. You can make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. It's everything you need to make a podcast in one place, download the Anchor app or go to anchor.fm to get started.
Episode Summary
By Valerie HD Killebrew
During this episode of Why Change? co-hosts Madeleine and Jeff discuss grounding their work in self-care and prioritizing humanity. Madeleine speaks with artist, educator, and activist Sangeeta Isvaran about her work throughout India and Asia, particularly her actions throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. Together, they discuss the importance of anchoring our work in love.
Sangeeta has researched many performing and visual art traditions across the world, creating her unique Katradi technique of empathy based social transformation. She is an empanelled dancer of the Indian Council for Cultural Relations with a mandate for cultural diplomacy. A highly skilled performer, she has performed in more than 40 countries over Asia, Africa, Europe, North and South America, where she has also collaborated with several governmental and non-governmental organizations to create spaces for people from different walks of life to access some form of art. She has studied various different dance forms from South Asia, Southeast Asia, Europe and West Africa, creating her own unique style of choreography in many international collaborations.
Through her inspiring stories of humanitarian and justice oriented work, Sangeeta introduces listeners to the concept of Rasa in artistic and educational experiences she’s facilitated across India and other countries. Rasa, as she describes, is at the core of many Indian performing art practices- an Indian concept of aesthetic flavor that can only be suggested, not described. Sangeeta leveraged this theory while working to support women who were victims of abuse or trauma as well as people displaced or uprooted due to COVID. Her message gives listeners a call to action to prioritize humanity first in our creative and justice-oriented work. Her reflection with Madeleine centers on what can happen to you and to others when activism or even your anger comes from a place that is centered in love and assuming and seeing the best in everyone instead of instinctive judgment. Sangeeta’s story is one of inspiration and Madeleine and Jeff both echo sentiments of her radical grace and compassion.