During this episode of Why Change? the co-hosts of the podcast - Ashraf Hasham, Rachael Jacobs, Madeleine McGirk, Jeff M. Poulin, and Karla Estela Rivera - reflect on their conversations throughout Season 2 and the myriad guests who made this season so rich and inspiring. The co-hosts revisit some of their favorite conversations, the questions that grew out of those discussions, and what they hope to bring into Season 3.
In this episode you’ll learn:
What lingering questions our co-hosts continue to ponder;
About the most inspiring moments to provide momentum into the new year; and
How you can engage throughout Season 3 in 2023!
ABOUT OUR CO-HOSTS
You can find out more about each co-host on the Why Change? web page here.
This episode was produced by Jeff M. Poulin. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s web page and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC.
-
Jeff M. Poulin 00:00
This is Why Change? the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff. Well Hola, soy Carla. It's Rachel here. What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf. And I'm Madeline y Chang is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people, can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started. Welcome to this season finale of season two of the Why change podcast, Jeff here with all of our fantastic co hosts tuning in synchronously from all around the world. I'm coming to you from my hometown home for the holidays in Portland, Maine, in the United States, and it's really, really good to be here with everybody.
Karla Estela Rivera 00:56
Hey, everybody.
Jeff M. Poulin 01:00
Why don't we go around here where everyone is calling in from today.
Karla Estela Rivera 01:03
Oh, go ahead. This is Karla Estela Rivera. I'm calling in from the great city of Chicago on a very cold and gray day.
Madeleine McGirk 01:15
Hello, I am Madeleine McGirk. I'm calling in from my freezing cold flat in Edinburgh in Scotland.
Ashraf Hasham 01:25
Hey, everybody, Ashraf here calling in from Seattle, Washington, USA. Happy to be here.
Rachael Jacobs 01:32
Hi, everyone. It's Rachel Jacobs. I'm here in the beautiful Dharug and Dharwar countries where sovereignty was never seated. And it's shaping up to be a steamy, steamy day in the middle of our summer. So hello, everyone from Australia.
Jeff M. Poulin 01:50
It is wonderful to have everyone here. We were joking before we got on recording that it's about twice a year that we all come together on one call and in our different timezone. So even just viewing the different levels of sunlight and seasonality Ashraf's wearing a beanie hat, Rachel has windows open, you know, we are representing all around the globe here today. But we're here to talk about the end of season two, which was a really wild ride that we've been on together, thinking about lots of big ideas, upcoming challenges, and the ever present question of why change. So I'd love to hear from everybody. What are your big reflections on the year? What are those moments that stuck with you? What have you been left pondering? What is giving you the charge to move into 2023?
Ashraf Hasham 02:46
Well, I will get started for us. I am Boy. This whole season has been kind of wild. I have been twice live with you, Jeff, at the Arts Schools Network Conference in Vegas recently and then further earlier in the year at the Colorado music Educators Association Conference. And between those got to interview some awesome folks in community one. What I do remember though, was last few conversations I had with funders, those funders of color who have been really disrupting the field in the way that they have been Emily power of the Skillman Foundation, Jonathan Cunningham of the Seattle Foundation, Celeste Smith of the Pittsburgh foundation and Darren Eastham who does some consulting work as well. It has been quite a wild ride. I'm excited to reflect on that with you all and what we're gonna get into next year. What about you, Karla? How have you been? what you've been up to?
Karla Estela Rivera 03:42
I've been good at a couple of things. You know, this has been a really great year. And I think for me, I think similar to philanthropy, just thinking about systems, right? And how systems impact how things are going today how, you know, services are delivered, either, you know, through our education services with young people, or how, you know, the arts can impact both philanthropy, you know, thinking about my conversation with Lisette Garza from the Crossroads fund, and how the work at crossroads and how her own upbringing in Pilsen really informs how that funding gets gets done. And the kind of, you know, ideology that she and that foundation, bring to the work that they do and who they fund or to Rosana Rodriguez Sanchez, who you know, was an artist and married political and activist work with artistic vision and is now on sitting on city council in Chicago's 33rd ward. She actually said the 33rd ward. Yes, it is. It's the 33rd Ward. So, you know, those things are really incredible. So, you know, just thinking about Marissa Ray is in Arkansas, and you know, in my brain going, who would want to leave Chicago to go to Arkansas. But in talking about what she does, she talks really eloquently and beautifully about a citizenship ceremony that they actually did there, and the way that people exhibit being a place that is so probably charged for politically, in many ways, that can be a touch point for multiple generations to learn. So the way that systems play in all of that is really interesting to me. And I loved having all of those conversations. What about you, Rachel,
Rachael Jacobs 05:52
when you, you know, you're talking, you're talking about someone who's such a change maker that gets elected? That kind of speaks to me, Carla. So thank you so much for bringing that into the conversation. Why change that question of why change has been weighing really heavily on me this year, for some reasons I'll reflect upon a bit later, but I've had some amazing conversations. I think one that sticks out in my head is with Amy Claire Mills, who is a disability activist and artist, and also a woman with chronic illness. And who is navigating what here in Australia is really unfamiliar territory, sadly and shamefully for the arts community, and is bringing about this greater awareness of how we need to center disabled voices how we need to center neuro divergence how we need to really shift our thinking from this really ableist way of viewing the world. And that was just a really fantastic conversation. And that No, all my conversations this year have tied together under this theme of creative justice with Jeff and I got to talk to my friend and colleague, Michael Finneran, who were looking at thrashing out that as a concept, what is creative justice? And how can that frame a lot of the conversations that we have? How can it also provide some structure around, you know, the kind of ethics in which we operate and things like that. And we're looking at furthering that conversation, to building a Center for Creative justice, which is really, really exciting. We might get to that a bit later. Madeleine over to you.
Madeleine McGirk 07:36
Thank you, God, I love listening to everyone's different take on change, right? Because of this, I spoke to Han, Simon and I. And they are all teaching artists who've made the most fabulous change in their communities in the sort of vastly different ways. And I think what really struck me from it all was this we have, there's this perception, I think that there is a way to make change, and that we need to learn that and we need to know the right people, and then go and meet them and then do a specific set of steps to make change happen. And I think what struck me about these three people specifically, was how much they are not doing that they are using their creative agency and their community engagement abilities, and all the skills that they have as teachers by artists to come at it from just wildly different ways. They're usually very community centered and community land. And I think that approach to the change, and that kind of not needing permission and doing your own thing, and just trusting and recognizing the impact that's inherent. And that is so interesting to me, because it's so not how we tend to think traditionally about systems change. But visually and viscerally. We just see that as being effective and knowing that. So I think those different strands and how they all connect is just endlessly cool to me. And so I've been kind of mulling that over all season. Yeah, Madeleine,
Jeff M. Poulin 09:03
I've also been mulling over that same concept. And I think my big takeaway actually doesn't have to do with any specific interview that I did, or conversation that we had, or even listening to all of yours, but instead was actually about the practice of this type of activity of talking to folks who are our peers that share a common set of values or beliefs about the world and discuss the multitude of different perspectives or actions that can be taken in order to drive that change. And I think what I end this season with is a really firm and reaffirmed belief that having these conversations is absolutely essential in our work, no matter what our job title is, no matter what we do, be it As a you know, university professor Rachel or as an organizational leader, Carla or as someone who is giving out public dollars Ostroff or as a conduit for connecting networks of people, Madeline, that we owe it to ourselves to have those peer to peer dialogues that we can learn from each other. So I think that maybe this is more well placed for the end of the episode but a call to action for all of our listeners of like, do this same practice in your community, who are the people you want to connect with? Who are those folks that you've maybe read their op ed in the newspaper or their white paper or listened to their music or seen their show, or viewed their artwork that you want to connect with? Because I think that can fuel so much in us? And, and what is fueled in me as maybe a transition to some of those further reflections is that literally anything is possible when we put our mind to it. And we've heard these stories of people absolutely up ending systems, reimagining practices, fully changing perceptions of people, Madeline, I think of Helen's work literally at the border between Israel and Palestine and changing the perspectives of people in that moment, using theater, to the really broad, broad scale work, Karla, that you were talking about with some of your guests that are looking at public policy and large scale. Public will change. I think there's so much that is possible and can be possible, but oftentimes we think is not. And I think I hope that season two can be a conduit for the type of inspiration we all need to take for it. So that's what I can't stop thinking about when I think about season two. So I'm curious, what are you all stuck with? What are you wondering what's still pondering in your head? What is the learning that you have continued? Since your conversations? Are there any nuggets of wisdom that we should highlight here at the end of season two?
Rachael Jacobs 12:04
Yeah, I think your call tip for everybody to have this conversation in their own communities in their own ways, I think is really special, Jonathan, and thanks for bringing that to the table. Because that really resonated for me. I guess the takeaway for me in terms of why change in season two would be that I got to interview some incredible people. And one of the people I didn't mention previously was Jess Harwood, who is a climate activist and a campaigner who is using her art to create change all over the internet and in our media and things like that. Both her and Amy started with what they considered to be small and humble steps of them just creating their work, and speaking their truth to power. And they never imagined the way that it would have snowballed to create changemakers. And I think for me, as an artist, I'm often looking for that big bang and thinking, God, when is the revolution habit, people? When is this happening? What's going on? And always going? Is it enough? Am I doing enough? There seems to be like, there's so much to do, and it's often so exhausting. And then I listened to some of the conversations that all of us have had. And I think that you never know where the ripple is going to end up. That you, you have no idea that, you know, the smallest flap of a butterfly's wings can reach the world. And even if it changes one person's heart or minds, that ripple effect goes way beyond what we can ever imagine. That's something that has really, really been brought home to me is that everyone doesn't worry about the scale. Don't worry about how much change you're making is the fact that change is happening. That is kind of, you know, the gold nugget
Karla Estela Rivera 14:02
and what what's, you know, what is interesting about what you're saying, Rachel, and what I'm thinking a lot about, too, is that we are you know, albeit slowly and in different paces, also coming out of this pandemic, you know, some, you know, in very, you know, specific and measured ways others are just kind of moving in full force. But, you know, within these conversations and conversations I'm having in the field, arts administrators of color network, we just recently had our annual convening in Washington, DC. You know, the thing that I'm hearing a lot, particularly from Arts leaders and folks across the sector, is this need for connectedness? Because so many of the people that we are talking to are folks that maybe are part of collectives but are quite often siloed doing things by themselves are that one person department or, you know, you know, or are kind of carrying the banner of justice. And you know, whether that's racial justice, or whether that is economic justice or environmental justice. Often, they're like folks like us here in our respective rooms, even though we are across the world, and we're brought together through zoom, are often doing these things and thinking about these things by themselves. And that the power of the conversation is how that reverberates. And so if we cannot be in person, or will not be in person for the reasons that, you know, so many folks have, you know, I think what this podcast and what these conversations have done, has really allowed folks to be reminded that they're not alone in this work. And that, to me, is such an important and beautiful takeaway, that we do need to continue to have these conversations so that they can connect also, they can hear themselves and be affirmed in the work but then also, how are we also then connecting with each other across the world so that eventually there there can be these in person moments, there can be greater collaboration, and there can be a lot of CO learning that happens across the world.
Jeff M. Poulin 16:32
Madeline, this sounds very familiar to the conversations we were all having in Oslo.
Madeleine McGirk 16:37
Yes, I know Cox's mouthfeel ages already. So obviously, a lot of my episodes happened in the first half of this year, because the second half was completely taken up for me with the attack six and was a conference and finally being together in person in a room with people. And it was phenomenal. The I think one of the things that I'm taking from the conference, but also from the chats I had in that first half of the year, to do with this ripple effect that you guys are talking about was the commonalities and the themes of persistence, but also resistance, and the way that different identities, enhance and really feed that. And I think whether it's Simon with establishing the National Theatre here in Scotland, because it's different in Scotland than it is in England, or other parts of the UK, we have our own identity and that needed recognized, or whether it's can and doing Combatants for Peace, and how identity in that space can inform that fear of the oppressed approach. And all of those different things and hope, persistence to resist what exists now, because you know, there can be better and there can be more. And just that act of defiance or of insistence that you need better can totally ripple and create something new. And then meeting and talking to these people who have lived and done that, you know, at scale has been so exciting to me, because coming out of the pandemic and that sort of oh my god, the world's broken what we're going to do, and then you talk to like these people in your, okay, humans, or we can do this, we can just do this. And I always feel so much later, after those chats. And listening to some of the others, I had the exact same experience where you go. Okay, it's not just me alone in a room, there are other people, there is a movement, and we're part of it. And we just do what we can do. But together, it adds up to something. And that feels really exciting to me and came out in spades at attack six too. But those conversations, I think, really, I felt that in a big way.
Ashraf Hasham 18:46
Awesome. I'm just gonna jump in. This is incredible. I love this metaphor of the ripple effects and the way that you've all touched on it. I called and talked about it like dominoes falling, and you don't even know where they're gonna go next. Right and, and part of what I heard from what y'all talk to him. One thing that stayed with me this year is the identities that we all bring to this work and how it informs what we do and how we do it. And that that is and has to be unique to all of us, and specifically folks who've chosen the global majority of people of color who have experienced depression, whether that is through intergenerational trauma or their own experiences. How that makes us more rich and more. Just more fuller leaders, fuller people, folks who have the perspectives that can get us through times where we don't know what to do. Those are the type of conversations I was happy to have with Darren Assam and Jonathan Celeste, and even Terry Morgan earlier in the year, tons of opportunities to talk about what each of those folks bring to their work, how they were informed by things that they didn't know we're going to be huge influences on them. And yet, completely were right with Terry Morgan, it was, it was in punk punk clubs, right. And somebody like Nick Duarte was discovering that the museum is simply a conduit to the community. And with Darren, it's starting his own body of work that is really exploring what people of color bring to the work that they do, and how that just has to be more deep, more rich, more, just more affirming than anything else. And that that really affects the color, the texture, the shape of the work that we do, and how we all actually have inroads to this work. We all deserve to be wherever we are. And whatever we're bringing to it actually is what needs to be brought to it in the first place. And then there comes the ripples from that, right?
Jeff M. Poulin 20:53
You know, what's really interesting is, as I'm listening to your reflection just now, about taking chances. And looking around this room, I realized that's kind of the origin story of at least my relationship with everyone here. It was someone who said, Hey, you should meet this person. Carla, Madeline Ashraf, Rachel. I think Carla, it was in Chicago, you had just started a new job. And someone said you gotta meet Madeline, it was our mutual friend and mentor s Leader Eric Booth who said, Hey, you're both going to be in Germany, why don't you go grab a glass of wine. Same thing, actually, Rachel, also in Germany, glass of wine. And then Ashraf, you know, it was our other friend, through a different organization that we're both affiliated with that said, there's this guy out in Seattle, like he needs to join this group, give them a call. And now here we are, you know, almost 510 years later in some circumstances. And I think that to my earlier point is that taking a chance, right? It can be so daunting in this world of work and things that need to get done. And all of the different opportunities that present themselves can be overwhelming. But taking the chance on some is really kind of how we ended up doing the most exciting work. And I'm just No, I'm so glad to have you all in my life on this podcast and be sitting here in this room. That's just a nice little moment to reflect on. But we are bringing Season Two to a close. And I know it is the end of the calendar year and the end of this episode. So to close us out for season two of the Why change podcast, I thought it might be fun to go back to our little podcast mission statement, which is to envision new creative futures by exploring the question Why change? So I want to invite everybody to finish the sentence to envision a new creative future, we must dot dot dot. What do you think,
Madeleine McGirk 23:03
I actually think I have an answer. Believe it or not. So to envision creating a future, we must accept that change is inevitable. It's not a way to change. It's a constant. And that it's, then the question becomes what do we want the change to look like? And what are we going to do? To make sure we make we shape that, and we produce that? And I think that feels like a really exciting prompt to me. So many of the people that I spoke to in the podcast, when I asked that question at the end, they all the wise ones always say, change is inevitable. It's not why I change. It's how to change how we want to change? And I think that feels like a really cool question, given the conversations we've all been having.
Ashraf Hasham 23:54
Yeah, I totally agree. One thing I heard in that and something that resonates with me too, is to envision a new creative future. We must be vulnerable, we must be willing to, to just be ourselves and stay there. And that should be the thing that that grounds us the most right listening, reflecting and being vulnerable. is something that I heard throughout my interviews this year. And that's something that like you said, Madeline the last few questions that we always ask one that was very similar to the one that I answered my first episode of why change was one that Angelique power mentioned, she said she's the most comfortable in spaces where she is actually the least comfortable, if that makes any sense. Like where you're forced to beat yourself where you're forced to be you and all you. That's where we're comfort lies, and I just sort of sit with that and that what that means to me is the vulnerability and being being one with yourself right Yeah,
Karla Estela Rivera 25:03
I was gonna say discomfort. And it's true. I mean, it's not only comfortable with being uncomfortable, but also accepting that change means that at the end of a particular road I will want to change, I think change is always constant. So there really isn't necessarily an end point. But that every iteration of change means it's different from how it started. And so as we're thinking about the new year, and we're thinking about, you know, all of the times that we're in, you know, you know, depending on where you sit in the world, I think that, you know, we have a lot of folks that want to roll things back to how they used to be, but things are wildly not how they used to be, and they will never be how they how they used to be. So to envision a new creative future, we must be uncomfortable with not being prescriptive of what that future looks like. Because all of us collectively have had our worlds turned upside down. And we've been forced to reimagine. And so let us be comfortable in that reimagining. And continue to do that. So I'm really excited to see who's still doing that out in the world, and then bring some light to them to
Rachael Jacobs 26:34
envisage a new creative future. For me, living here, I guess, on stolen land in the context of this rapidly changing world, I think that we definitely have to stop and listen to each other, that it's got to be an exercise that's framed around, recognizing what power you have, and that you have power to create change. But what you do to see that power to others, to make space to give over space, and to create that space. So beautiful, new things can happen. And I think what we've seen this year is that people are so ready and willing in good spaces to do that. I honestly find it so inspiring. I find it so exciting that so many people are ready to do this, again, face to face in person, they want to return to some of the best things about the world that we lost before COVID. And I guess it just feels like a really exciting time.
Jeff M. Poulin 27:37
You know, y'all I think in having this conversation here today, I've sort of had a breakthrough, which is a little bit of the why, of why we have the Why change podcast. So I think my answer to the prompt is to envision a new creative future, we must have the conversation. I think if we don't have the conversation, we don't have the compass, we don't know the direction. We're not all working in concert together. And that's the thing that has come out of this podcast over the last few years. There's more connections, there's more ideas exchanged, there's more actions that are taken. And that is something truly to celebrate. And, you know, Creative Generation, we talk a lot about our values for its approach. And one of those that I'll just leave everyone with today is inspiring joy. And I think that's something that's embedded in everything that we do. We have these conversations, we do exchange those ideas. We do try to figure out what exactly happened and how we might replicate it. But in the end, it's that human connection. And it's the joy that comes out of this work. This change work is hard, but it is joyous. And I so enjoy that joke. I enjoy being on this podcast with all of you. But I'm also so thankful for the many conversations that have occurred in this space to all of our contributors interviewees, the editors, the music makers, everyone that puts it together. We have created something really cool and I'm so thankful for it. So thank you all so much for being here. Thank you to the listening audience for tuning in to our season finale of season two of the Why Change? podcast. We'll talk to you all in the New Year.
I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the show notes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write to us at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by Jeff M. Poulin. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is is Katie Rainey the podcast theme music is by distant cousins A special thanks to our contributors co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support