In this episode of Why Change?, co-hosts Madeleine and Jeff share their recent creative endeavors and what they’ve learned from recent podcast guests. Madeleine shares her interview with Michael Rohd about his work at the intersection of artistic and civic practice. They discuss the intersection of arts and other sectors, working in systemic change, and centering those most impacted.
In this episode you’ll learn:
Strategies to make the case for the arts engagement in the civil sector cross-sectorally;
How to use your (and others!) practice to balance systems change while authentically engaging with social issues; and
How to continue learning at every step of your journey.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
ABOUT Michael Rohd
Michael is a theatre-maker, educator, process designer, writer and facilitator. His research and creative practice is focused on civic imagination. He has a 30+ year history of projects across sectors bringing cultural activity to the work of public engagement, community planning and cross-sector coalition building. In 1992 in Washington DC, Michael co-founded Hope Is Vital, an arts & public health program that, over 8 years, helped start up theatre-based public engagement/HIV prevention coalitions in over 80 communities around the US. In 1999, Michael co founded Sojourn Theatre and served as artistic director for 20 years, co-creating & directing nearly 30 devised, often site-specific and participatory theatre works. In 2012, he co-founded the Center for Performance and Civic Practice, a collective of nine artist/facilitators who work with organizations and agencies around the country on community research, transformational process and system change. He is currently Civic Collaborations Director for One Nation One Project, a national arts/municipality/public health project & research cohort in partnership with National League of Cities and he is co-designer/ co-facilitator for Art-Train, a virtual national technical assistance program in partnership with Springboard for the Arts. He recently founded the Co-Lab for Civic Imagination at the University of Montana, and he is author of the book Theatre for Community, Conflict and Dialogue (Heinemann Press).
This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s webpage and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC
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Jeff M. Poulin 00:02
This is why change the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Estela Rivera 00:08
Oh, Hola. Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs 00:10
It's Rachel here.
Ashraf Hasham 00:11
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk 00:13
And I'm Madeleine.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:14
Why change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started.
Madeleine McGirk 00:37
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of The Why change podcasts. I'm your co host, Madeleine McGirk, and I am here joined by Jeff pillar, and Hello, Jeff.
Jeff M. Poulin 00:47
Hey, Madeleine. How are you? My friends? Good.
Madeleine McGirk 00:51
Thank you. Good. It is Monday. Well, just early afternoon for me if I'm coming off a super lovely weekend, actually, I've been dressmaking and sewing this weekend. So it is very, very rare that I make anything with my hands. And so yeah, I'm feeling a bit like Zen and happy at the moment. How have you been doing? You've been all over the place recently, right?
Jeff M. Poulin 01:14
Yeah, well, I had a crazy Travel Week. And then I feel like the month of August here is pretty settled, which is kind of nice. I'm on this, like, one crazy week, a month. And then the rest is pretty normal. Which is nice. But I kind of share with you. You know, I think both of our art forms are in the performing arts generally. And I feel like the art that I was doing this past weekend was culinary in nature. So I did a lot of cooking and things like that, which Yeah, gave me that sense, same sense of grounding. I think there's something about Yeah, making stuff with your hands that brings you in the present. And really, you know, you see, you see the results of the work, it's really satisfying.
Madeleine McGirk 01:56
What did you make? Oh, so
Jeff M. Poulin 01:57
many things? Well, because the goal of the weekend was actually to clear out the pantry and the freezer. And so it was a smattering of different things from Asian spring rolls to, you know, adobo, Chipotle grilled chicken, nothing matched its, you know, cultural origins. But it was all delicious. And, you know, nothing went to waste, which was the goal, fresh herbs from the garden that we're about to go like all the things it was, it was great. And I am fat and happy on this Monday.
Madeleine McGirk 02:33
Oh, nice. We have a name for that in the UK. You may remember nibbly bits are not like one cohesive meal, but it's just a bunch of nibbly bits. And it's like the best, most satisfying dinner ever.
Jeff M. Poulin 02:47
You know, I think that's actually a really great way to talk to think about the podcast. I feel like that's what the nibbly bit of knowledge that we get from these folks is, because that's where I feel we've had some fantastic guests the last couple of weeks. And I feel like they're nibbly bits, if you will, of brilliance of wisdom have really actually been sticking with me these last few episodes. I've been putting their ideas right into practice, which is so affirming. It's kind of the same affirmation of making things with your hands in a way that is the application of new aha moments that you get. It's just really great.
Madeleine McGirk 03:30
Oh, that's such a good segue. I kind of agree, actually. Because one of the nice things about this weekend when I was making things is it's not screens, right? And it's like you're just sort of sitting focusing on what's in front of you. And then before you know it, three hours are gone. And you're like, Whoa, but what it does do is give you time to actually digest all the pieces of information or thoughts or speakers that you've heard. And I think you and I both have a privilege of speaking to so many great people. But it's kind of you don't always get a chance to actually take it in. Yeah. And so I'm really happy that we had that moment because for listening to reviewable here next with Michael Rhodes is a great example of that, where it's quite quick. It's, you know, we go through it quite fast, because Michael's a busy guy, and we, you know, I wanted to get the most out of that moment. But having time to sit and listen back and be like, Oh, or like reflect was really, really useful. So yeah, nice segue. And with that being said, Shall I introduce this week's speaker? Yes, please. Okay, so I won't say too much about the interview because we're about to hear it. But I sat down and chatted with Michael Rohde, who just does an amazing accumulation of work on different topics. And I hope that you all enjoy it. I will not try and reiterate it for you because he's about to weigh more eloquently. So enjoy it. Hello, Hi, Michael, and welcome. And thank you so much for being here to talk to me for the file change Podcast. I'm so pleased to be able to talk to you right now, and hear more about your work. So welcome.
Michael Rohd 05:20
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I'm very happy to be here.
Madeleine McGirk 05:24
Not at all. So to get started, I think the best thing is to just jump right in and hear a little bit about yourself. So can you tell the listeners a bit about where you are in the world right now and explain the work that you primarily do?
Michael Rohd 05:40
Yeah, so my background is I'm a theater maker. And I've been doing that for a while. I'm 56. So I started working as a grown up in the 80s, early 90s. And I spent most of the 90s, on an organization I founded called Hope is vital, which had me doing interactive theater workshops around the United States, where I was working with young people and adults to develop locally based ensembles that we then use participatory theater to, to sort of act as a community resource around issues like HIV and AIDS, homelessness, sexuality, homophobia, a lot of sort of issues that came with me grappling with at that time, and build an ensemble and material. And when I left, they were kind of working in that way in the calendar we made. I helped start up a part of the meetings about 85 of those around us in different places. And then I went back to grad school as a theater maker focusing on public dialogue. And I helped found a theater company called Sojourn Theatre, which is 23 years old now and spent a bunch of our time in Portland, Oregon. The United States also helped found one thing here like doggy style, sorry, less, dogs, and fates are a little unhappy. I found an organization called the Center for Performance and Civic Practice in 2012. And that was sort of part of my shift, not just to making art, but kind of putting a lot of my energy into helping build capacity, kind of arts contexts, but also in community development and local government contexts for how folks can collaborate across sectors in those cultural art, Republic world, different collaborative projects, different ways of kind of growing artists process ties in to different community processes. So that's been a really big part of my life for the past decade or so. I've also been a teacher for a really long time. So I taught at Northwestern Chicago for a while then at BSU, Arizona State University. And now about a year ago, I started the cloud for civic imagination, here at the University of Montana, where I was with my family. And that work has been about working with how students were training in the arts across disciplines, but also students in areas like BA in public health and education, community planning, camp all be thinking about how again, cultural work can contribute to lots of community outcomes, and that artistic practice isn't limited to arts, ecosystems, or art sort of distribution and production kind of models. And that work happens in the community, generally historical things of the arts, such as beauty and inspiration. Reasons for gathering can actually look at arts and artists as contributors to lots of process opportunities for problem solving, coalition building and community visioning. So now I spend a bunch of my energy as a maker, also helping support capacity for a lot of those kinds of collaborations in an education setting, kind of helping folks think about how we're going to be building bridges for folks to work across sectors and disciplines really productively. You know, while centering issues of equity, and participation, and injustice,
Madeleine McGirk 09:13
Wow, you're so speaking my language, I don't know how much you know about it, in the work that we do, oh, my goodness, capacity building and making the case for art. Art outside of art silos is just a huge beast to try and tackle because it's so entrenched. And I feel like all of these areas that you're describing are still on the radar of things that I would place as just top priority right now for our whole sector. So that's really exciting. And you mentioned a few different areas that you address are quite a few with health and identity, and civic imaginations, and the role of the arts in those kinds of spaces. And I wonder if you could talk a little or give an example to see what that looks like for you, or one of those projects and how that worked in practice, I think, for anyone who's new to those concepts and examples is always super helpful.
Michael Rohd 10:09
Yeah, I mean, it's funny when I, when I think about this, because I'm in my head, scrolling through life, 30 years of stuff. So I'll go most of the time, which is a collaboration that my co lab is undertaking here, whereas in Missoula, Montana, which is a city of about 110,000. So we've started a collaboration with the city parks and rec department. And also with the Public Health Department, it's really specific. So you know, cities often undergo planning processes or strategic planning, where they're trying to figure out how they're going to use their resources, and what they're going to prioritize for the coming years. So here I am, in the American West, a lot of cities and counties have a lot of parks, a lot of green space, and a lot of programming. And they do a lot of resource allocation with community resources. So in this case, the city that I'm in hasn't done a strategic plan for their parks and rec department in 20 years. And I met the woman who runs the department, Donna, and she heard me talk a little bit about the work I was doing with connecting artists and community to different kinds of public good outcomes and processes. And she said, Hey, so we have a history of doing clear planning processes here. But we often feel like we're missing communities or populations that are historically underrepresented. And their voices are often not a part of our planning processes. And the more and more our city, sort of committed to equity, the less and less appropriate fields to do that kind of planning without those voices engaged. So she said, would you, you know, what do you think about there? How might you work with us? So I pitched her something that I'd worked on before, particularly in Chicago, which is where you identify what those communities or populations are. And then you work to identify artists in those communities or populations, you know, and for this for this podcast, you know, I we're certainly looking at teaching artists in those areas, but you're looking at practicing artists who have experience in any kind of collaborative and sort of challenging setting, who identify some of those artists in new seek, which one has might be interested in getting paid to participate in some orientation to design some arts workshops enter their discipline in their practice, but they would also be willing to get paid to include the design of their art session, listening work, so that whatever their discipline is, and whatever they're going to read a Printmaking Workshop or digital storytelling workshop and movement workshop, they're going to work with me in the Parks and Rec folks to identify a few core questions that the Parks and Rec Department wants to learn about, from the perspective of community members they might not hear from otherwise. So the artist is getting paid to orient, to design, to lead those workshops, and then to help debrief, synthesize and debrief what they learned back to the park staff. So it can feed into the public engagement and planning process. So you know, that's an example where I would say, civic imagination is defined as the capacity for residents and local members to collaborate on imagining equitable and just futures that work for everyone. I think artists are really powerful maneuvers, connectors, navigating the lives of practitioners in that civic imagination, space. So in this example, artists are sort of contributing, participating in the civic imagination, on output. This is going to be all these voices that then went into actual civic planning. And the artists are the linchpin of that, and we'll get paid to do that work.
Madeleine McGirk 13:47
Oh, that's amazing. And I have to ask, because I feel like it's so rare that you hear such a willingness to come and help us from particular government or policy places. Um, how difficult or easy was that for you to step in and make this case? It sounds like maybe they were kind of open minded to this.
Michael Rohd 14:09
Yeah, I mean, I mean, exactly what you're saying, I feel like making that case is something that I, I think like you and a lot of people listening have been doing, for me literally for 30 years, like making that case in different spaces. So I feel fairly safe. In these kinds of ways I might try to make the case for a given audience, always trying to learn more and gather more data and have more stories, but I feel like I have a handle on where to start. And in this case, I had reached out to the Parks and Rec director, Donna, when I arrived in town a year ago, because I was just doing the rounds and trying to meet people. And in those instances, this is a recommendation I give to anyone doing this work. I didn't wait to go to her until I had a project idea or until I wanted funding. I went to her because I was new in the community. And she runs Parks and Rec which isn't a really important governmental space where residents, policy and resources kind of meet. And I wanted to make sure she knew that I was thinking about ways maybe we could collaborate. I wanted her to hear from me how I thought it could be useful to her. She came back to me six months later and said, We're doing this planning process. You mentioned public engagement, is what you're talking about maybe like a thing that could happen as we're trying to figure out this challenge, working with and hearing from historically underrepresented voices. And I said, Yes, yes, let's talk about that. So it was the first meeting, which was not a pitch meeting that did the first level of advocacy work, then we could have a conversation about what was possible. And that allowed us to sort of take the next step. You certainly know she was opened up, and you might encounter someone in her role, who after the first conversation, forgot about it, or had no interest or thought it was baloney. And that was not the case here. If that was the case, six months later, I would have just done another reach out and tried to be letting that person know about other work happening locally now, but in this case, she was okay.
Madeleine McGirk 16:03
And you mentioned the sort of social issue side of things that underserved communities and the absent voices. And then you also mentioned the systems, right, like the Parks and Rec Department and the resources and all of that. And I think one of the things that we often hear is, is toughest and positions like yours, is kind of like brokering those and trying to understand how do you honor both? Because I think so often people feel systems are broken, or they're not really the space for me. And then you're sort of trying to do some repair work there to say they can be and here's how that might look. And I wonder if you want to say anything about balancing those systems versus social issues versus all of that.
Michael Rohd 16:49
I guess the first thing that comes to my mind, when you kind of pose that question is who does one center when one is trying to do the work of connecting and advocating for new practices. And you know, if you're, if you're coming, if you're talking about the rise of equity, or community or resume driven practice, then you have to center folks with lived experience, anyplace where you're working, which by the way, partly includes park staff who are lifelong residents of this place, and really believe in what they do. But it also includes certainly trying to work with underserved or underrepresented communities, like being a dialogue and building relationships in those spaces. And I think a couple of the starting places are. So I'm working with Parks and Rec, but now I'm also working with arts Missoula, which is basically the Arts Council here, which has relationships with artists around the community, including in these spaces. So I brought them in as a partner. And they're helping vouch for me into some conversation with folks that I do not have existing relationships with as a new person here. And you know, sometimes what we're doing is one of the populations that they identified is the LGBTQIA plus community. So you know, we start with the gay and lesbian community center. So it's not like let's go find a random artist and see if we can engage them to represent that community. But who are the sorts of leaders and advocates already representing that community and public discourse and local advocacy? And how do we start with a conversation with them to figure out how to respectfully engage this process with an on behalf of the government body, but also trying to be on behalf of and advocating for the folks that they represent. So by connecting with them first, and getting recommendations for artists, and then you meeting with artists through and with them, we're trying to sort of center the spaces and peoples that I mean, I'm going to leave you in 12 minutes to have a conversation with the woman who runs all nations, which is an urban Indian health center, because one of the populations is the indigenous people in this community. So the woman Skye, who runs that senator has now had a couple of conversations with me, as we're identifying artists and trying to figure out how respectfully parks could engage with that community, understanding the complexity of the multi tribal backgrounds that people have in any urban Indian kind of context. So I think it's about not one not assuming an individual is enough or represents a space, but figuring out how do I respectfully engage with that community in ways that they are already publicly engaging? And how do I figure out how to be in service to them, and put a pause on anything that doesn't feel appropriate and respectful to the folks whose voices are in that conversation? Whoo, that's right.
Madeleine McGirk 19:36
And I think what you're describing there is so thoughtful and it sounds like a researched approach, right? This isn't something you've just thought up yesterday, you said you've been doing this for 30 years, right? And you mentioned your career trajectory and coming through grad school and all the rest. And I I feel like sometimes advocacy is like its own art form because you have to be so agile with who you're talking to, and what you present based on that. And I wonder, was that something you intentionally built into your growth as an artist as well? Or did it come up naturally? Or what? How did that grow alongside your artistic practice?
Michael Rohd 20:20
I'm not a great student. Historically, like being a student is not my strong point. I went to school and like you said, I went to grad school. So my journey of learning has more been from mentors, and practice, and practicing and observation and experience, then it has been from sort of having a research agenda. I don't have a PhD, I don't have an MFA. I'm not like I'm not a scholar. I'm a writer. But I'm not a scholar. So I think for me, the answer to your question is I got to work with and spend time around people like most of the while, what Concord you're on the Frary ping shown more Bakar Guile Rob Lennar and kilkelly Carl Turner, you know, amazing folks who have deep histories and lineage as they come out of, as well as just sort of doing stuff when I really wasn't. I did stuff that I really shouldn't be like, I was too young, probably ensuing experience to be leading workshops in a homeless shelter with men and women living with HIV in 1992, in Washington, DC, but I was doing it. Because I was young, I was like, I guess I can do this, I got asked to do it. So I'll do it, and make a lot of mistakes, and do a lot of learning. And really, the folks I worked with, taught me as much or more than anyone about what needs practice and what didn't. And then along the way, certainly, you know, writings of folks like Sweeney, Madison and AJ Marie Brown, and a bunch of other folks, their scholarship has helped me kind of try to put up Stephanie Woodson has helped me kind of put ideas and framing and evidence to some of the stuff I've learned, but I think a lot of it has been walking alongside and behind and sort of learning and doing. Wow,
Madeleine McGirk 22:14
That's amazing. I feel like there's a whole like hour long part to where I just want to ask you what that was, like to be around those people and to absorb that, because that sounds unbelievable,
Michael Rohd 22:25
stupid, super, super, like persistent at times to build those relationships, but very lucky. And you know, it was silly. But like, when I started doing this work, there's no internet. And there's no cell phones. And the difference between what I and you can access now to learn about what's happening out there and to connect with people and build networks. Search astounds me in terms of what we had to do, just in the 80s and 90s, just to figure out who was doing what, and how can I learn from that? And it was, it was a whole different thing.
Madeleine McGirk 23:03
I don't know why I've literally never considered that pre internet before.
Michael Rohd 23:10
I can tell you like the mean, it took me a year and a half to track down a way to meet the wall and then start working with him. There was no website, there was no email, there was no way to sort of see his schedule. Yeah, this is a very, very different time in terms of figuring out how to gain access, or try to be near and learn.
Madeleine McGirk 23:32
Oh, yeah, I'm gonna need about another hour, at some point to be like a network. That's,
Michael Rohd 23:40
I love telling those stories. I was yeah, it was an amazing opportunity.
Madeleine McGirk 23:44
Well, I'm conscious of time, so I won't but Oh, my God, I want to. And this next one is a hard question, because you've done so much. But if you had to pick just one project that you've been involved in that you were particularly proud of either the process or products or any element, what, what would that be and what would I be?
Michael Rohd 24:04
I'm gonna say one that was a big learning project. I don't, I don't know if it's the one I'm most proud of, but I'm proud of it. But it feels like an example. I like to share because it was big and ambitious. And I think we accomplished some things. And I also think we fell short. So when our company was in Oregon, in the early 2000s, we took on a project about public education. In Oregon in the United States, we called a witness to our schools. We spent a year and a half doing research and interviews. And our desire was not just to not just to make a touring play that we would take to audiences, but you could intersect with really important conversations going on in that state at that time. So back then when you did this, there was a moment in Oregon's history and folks were listening to this and didn't know us Western geography. much of Oregon is on the west coast of the US State north of California. It has a very striking split between a sort of liberal part of the state which is mostly urban and a conservative part of the state, which is rural and quite large. And that would play out at the state legislature in very intense ways. And I want to say 2003, perhaps, and the state legislature was deadlocked on a budget, they couldn't come up with a budget, particularly on what to spend on public schools for the coming year. And everybody was waiting with bated breath because there actually wasn't money to finish the school year, they were waiting on this session that kept going. And a legislator on the floor in the capitol got so angry that they threw a stapler at the head of another legislator and hit them in the head did your blood and it was a chaos, and the state legislature immediately went into recess, they couldn't finish the session, because it was so ridiculous. And as a result, the public schools in the whole state closed four weeks early. So everybody went home and didn't get paid. The students didn't finish. Guys, Barry did a week of strips on the absurdity of it, actually. So we had already been making the show. And we shifted gears because we basically every couple of years have Nick a touring show tour around the state. And one of our board members who worked for the Department of Ed said, you really don't have a choice, you can't do anything other than make a show about this, because this is what everyone needs to be talking about right now. So we spent an hour and a half building it. And then we toured it for nine months. So every Sunday for nine months, we were in a different community around the state with a free 2pm performance. That was a 65 minute choreographic kind of interview based device show, followed by a 90 minute Town Hall dialogue, which was also filled with improvisation and facilitation, almost like a version of a tip kind of session. But it was with local politicians. It was with parents, students, teachers, so we use the play as a catalyst. For them the experience of this public forum was theater based. And that grew, the presence of it grew in the state conversation. So by April, we were invited to perform it on the floor of the Capitol where that incident had happened a couple of years before. So legislators saw the show. And they were able to deliver what we've been learning through the dialogues to legislators as a part of that visit. And we became part of the conversation around the state with reform organizations. And part of it was that we brought a lot of different contradictory and antagonistic voices into the play, and then welcomed them into the space and just tried to make dialog where we could find some common ground on what people wanted to see the role of public education being in their communities and how they wanted to resource that. And that that project was a bit of a template for me going forward in terms of some of the ways we built networks, some of the ways we thought about theater as catalysts for conversation. That was the yeah, that's, that's something I'm proud of, but also just had a lot of learnings for me that I'm still impacting on still learning from even as I work on a project about mental health in the state right now. So
Madeleine McGirk 28:18
That's amazing. And I feel like you can hear the influences of those people you've mentioned studying alongside coming through in that story so strongly to
Michael Rohd 28:27
Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah, anything?
Madeleine McGirk 28:31
Well, I know we have to wrap up in a second. And to do that, we always end with a few quickfire questions just to help people think through and unpack things that you've said a little more. So if you don't mind, I'm going to jump right in and ask you a couple and just the first thing that comes to your mind. Okay, so who inspires you?
Michael Rohd 28:54
My family. People who are doing grassroots work every day, that is not really in the spotlight, but are making a massive difference in the spaces they're in, particularly schools and health contexts. Artists, who have you watched across my lifetime and continue to do amazing work. Those are some of the people that inspire
Madeleine McGirk 29:19
and what keeps you motivated.
Michael Rohd 29:25
Trying to be useful and not complacent or complicit.
Madeleine McGirk 29:33
And when are you most grounded with my family, and how do you stay focused?
Michael Rohd 29:43
By trying to stay, I try to have a sense of what tasks need to get done to keep different things moving forward. And I try not to think about all the reasons everything will fail too much.
Madeleine McGirk 29:55
And finally, why change
Michael Rohd 30:01
Because the way things are, doesn't work for most people, and therefore change is necessary. And because at a cellular, biological existential level change is happening anyway, so we have to engage with it. Otherwise, we're actually not alive.
Madeleine McGirk 30:21
Well, thank you so, so much. I think this is one of those chats that could have been like three hours long. So maybe the time constraint was an enabling one. But thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're super busy. So it was great to hear from you. And I'm
Michael Rohd 30:36
just so grateful for the conversation and grateful to be a part of the really big community that your podcast represents, and that your work kind of continues to help push forward. If you want to talk again, sometime, I'd be happy.
Madeleine McGirk 30:46
Thank you so much. Well, with that being said, I'll see a massive final thank you. And I can't wait to share this with everyone. So thank you again, Michael.
Michael Rohd 30:55
Thank you very much. Take care.
Madeleine McGirk 31:06
Okay, this is a big one. Right, that covers a lot. So, Jeff, what were your takeaways?
Jeff M. Poulin 31:13
You are entirely right. There was so much that was covered from Michael's career trajectory, and his work today, some examples of really strong practice and some of these kinds of theoretical notions of just approaches to the work and our practice, as, as teaching artists as civic Imaginators is that a word? What really stuck with me, and I think, resoundingly is this notion of Michael's practice of arts as part of civic imagination, and the role of art artists and culture bearers and creativity within things like civic design, and city planning, and parks, and recreation and things like that. It really just, it stands out to me, because it's often what people talk about a lot, in theory, but don't actually move to or only really try to scratch the surface, in practice. And so it's very commendable the work that he's been doing for 30 years of truly embedding in these spaces.
Madeleine McGirk 32:21
Yeah, I think that was one of the things that struck me too, was like how widely talked about things like civic imagination, or arts and civic spaces are, but then how complex and difficult that actually is, as its own practice that can be applied in those spaces, teaching art history, married, with institutions, married with social justice, and social issues. And trying to tackle all of that, respecting all partners and honoring all the needs, but actually also moving things forward. And not just getting bogged down in all the technical specifications that need to be met. And I think I said that to him to make or but it's like, it seems like its own art form to me being able to balance all these partnerships and do it. So. So it feels authentic to everyone involved. Yeah, it's such a weaving of different threads together. That seems kind of amazing to me, that anyone can do this for that long, so successfully.
Jeff M. Poulin 33:24
I totally agree. And you know, and it's interesting, because, you know, rarely did Michael, one of the things I picked up on was rarely did Michael ever really talk about arts and culture or artists only in the context of, he was speaking with you representing, you know, a network of teaching artists. But it's actually a thing that I've been grappling with a lot. And this sounds sort of silly. But here at Creative Generation, we've been naming our research practice, which, for five years, has toggled between traditional quantitative and qualitative research methods, and, quote, unquote, non traditional or arts based, often education research. And we've named it and we'll be releasing some stuff more about it. But it's interesting because we talk about the application, and the words that we landed on our narrative perspective and imagination. Now, nothing about art for you know, we're not saying theater or poetry or music or dance, because I think so often. Those are the vehicles. Those are the practices that get us to the actual thing that we're doing in some of these spaces, like civic spaces. And so I love that Michaels is talking about imagination, because that's something that when you're working in different systems, like city planning, for example, artists are the vehicle and they use their practice and he named that that they can use their own discipline and whatever. But it's towards that goal of the shared imagination of all stakeholders, no matter who it is young people, adults, visitors, longtime residents, you know, what have you and that imagination is what brings people together and that power is in that shared Imagination and the application within the Civic, civic civil society, if you will. And that, to me, is that vernacular to me is actually really important. Because, I mean, we know this when people say, oh, yeah, we're gonna do an opera workshop. 70% of people tap out, like, that's not for me. And I think if we say, we're actually going to imagine together, that's much more accessible, and builds those bridges be, you know, you become that broker between sectors and systems and, and things like that, which is another thing that I actually wanted to talk about, because you talked, you named it in your interview about balancing systems work while authentically engaging with social issues. And Michael named practice as being the bridge. And it was interesting, because I got in my head for a minute thinking about well, of course, our artistic practices, teaching artists, you know, is the bridge in between these really complex, you know, scenarios that we're working in. And then he went on to talk and immediately countered the thought process that was going in my head, because he was actually talking about the practice of the Civic planners in this case, and not about Artspace, anything. And I had an aha moment where I realized so often in our work, especially those socially engaged artists, or community based artists, teaching artists that are trying to work in other sectors, there's an assumption that we have that the practice of that other sector is stagnant and immovable. In reality, the same way that our art space practices are evolving every single day as we continue to learn and grow and experience more in the world. So are the other folks. And so perhaps we could maybe lower that wall that we immediately build in between us and say, actually, you know, we're on this journey together, and let's exchange and learn from each other. And I think I developed a little thought in my head of like, what could the next time I'm talking to someone from another sector, what's when I'm going to commit to learning one thing from what they do, and apply it in my work? Because so often, I get stuck in that, well, here's how you can apply creativity in your work, or here's how you can use the arts in your work. And I never think like, oh, what can I take from their work in science or healthcare or, you know, planning or whatever, and apply it in mind? Which was it, a moment for me?
Madeleine McGirk 37:21
Oh, well, that's amazing, because I feel like that kind of ties into this being its own art form, right? Because with partnerships, we hope that you're learning and you're growing together, and you're collaborating and all the rest. But you're right, I think it's so often we think of that in artistic collaborations. But so often, when it's cross-sectional, I think we think, oh, we'll come in and shake things up, and you're welcome. But it's, I think, I hope that people can really do exactly what you're saying, and, you know, take a leaf from Michael's book and kind of build on that, or notice an evolution collectively. And that's the only way the problem gets solved. But that's also how he described the bridge building and the sort of system social issues, addressing both that not letting go of each other's needs and, and keeping it authentic. And I think that probably only happens with that really open, what do you have to share with me? What can I share with you? You're right, when it's not art space, or it's not spoken about in art space terms, I think that's a really easy thing to like, glitch over in your mind. Yeah, and,
Jeff M. Poulin 38:31
you know, and he specifically called out the need to center, you know, those most impacted and those with knowledge that's not, you know, already at the table. And I think that if we approach it with that, you know, evolutionary method that you were just describing, that's the first way to really engage in that authentic process of centering those most impacted because, you know, immediately when we start talking about Artspace work, or we start topic, talking about these, you know, really high level, you know, strategic planning of the city and things like that, you're automatically excluding a bunch of people who have wonderful ideas, but like just because of like the framing or the language or whatever, it feels super inaccessible, and they don't want to participate in they self select out. And so, making that intentional choice towards inclusion and belonging, and all of the the goals that we often set forward with of centering those folks we can actually achieve it and it does take that the setting aside of our artistic privilege, if you will, and the kind of refocusing on authentic engagement that that will really make the difference in my opinion.
Madeleine McGirk 39:43
Yeah. And I will say in terms of making the difference. One thing I mean, I talked about this all time, but I feel like the the cross sector approach is so necessary for the for teaching artistry and for Ever going in the future and for not siloing ourselves into the sort of niche workforce that gets called in sometimes it's like, no, we have such a massive contribution that we can make when it's done thoughtfully in different spaces. And I think this work that Michaels is doing on this, I mean, massive breadth of work he's been doing for 30 odd years, is such a hopeful example to me of like, it can happen, it is scalable, it can work in these different spaces. We just need to adjust the language and how we're framing it. And look for those like minded people that he mentioned. And those departments who are like, seeking out that change, don't know quite what it's called. And then there's all these teaching artists seeking out these spaces and don't quite know where they are. And it's just such a rich area that I really hope we can manage to tap and scale. And that's certainly a mission I'm on and have been for a while. But it's a really nice refreshing story to hear about it going well, for a long period of time.
Jeff M. Poulin 41:06
Yeah, absolutely. And I think Michaels career trajectory to, you know, talking about 30 years, he talked about his work with soldiers in theater, and, you know, his academic studies, you know, resulting in an MFA and things like that. But the thing that I really loved is that he was developing this body of work and was very honest about, you know, he was in spaces when he maybe shouldn't have been, and things didn't go as planned. And he learned from that. And that was all part of his, his learning and cultivation of his practice, which is something that super resonates with me, and I know, in our work, supporting young leaders, together with the Young and Emerging Leaders Forum and things like that. It's a vital, vital story to hear. But also, I just found it interesting. And this is my only sort of light critique, you know, with a little bit of just to Michael, is that, you know, he said, Well, I'm not I'm not a very good student. But here are all the ways that I continuously learning, which is just funny, because I think that that's something that we all, especially teaching artists, you know, we get into that space, or where the educator and then we say, oh, no, you know, we're not like, I haven't, like studied in the way that I'd want to, or, you know, I'm not a, you know, I wasn't a straight A student and traditional methods of, of courses of study and things. But at the end of the day, that's actually part of artistic practice is that continued evolution, and that continuous improvement and continued learning, and, you know, just the amount of people that he was like, Oh, well, this person wants my work. And that one, and that one, and that one, and that one, and there's less like 40 of them. And that's tremendous. And that's a big lesson for me is that, especially as we build a practice, and codify it, and articulate it well and demonstrate its impact, that we are always continuously evolving, and responding to the needs of people and responding to our communities. And of course, in the last three years, you know, there's been no greater lesson than the need for that. But that was, that was, for me, the affirmation of his story was one of, yeah, this is how it's supposed to go. And people should take note that it's not like you go and you get your PhD, and then, you know, bing, bang, boom, you're done. We're always learning. We're always growing.
Madeleine McGirk 43:22
Yeah. And I think that's so true. Because all of these issues that we encounter so often, our own people or institutions or whatever, have stopped. And I've got no, no, we did this. We came up with this 20 years ago. So that's what we do. And then now we encounter them, right? And we're like, wow, that's not quite good enough. It's not quite right anymore. It doesn't really serve the things that maybe you thought it was 20 years ago. And I think that's the exact moment people choose to stop trying to evolve or things stop growing and being responsive is the moment that yeah, Nick stagnates and needs some teaching artists to come in and shape.
Jeff M. Poulin 44:05
And now we've gotten full circle around the band. No, you know, but it is interesting, because that also was one of the big findings. I spend a lot of time thinking about the findings of my own research and my own practice. As I mentioned, you know, we're trying to articulate, you know, our different research approaches and, and even just going back, I reread like the initial paper that really predicted our meeting back in Germany in 2019, or whatever, about the concept of the Creative Generation and our findings. And one of those big findings is that when we don't have ongoing communities of practice the practices that were once revolutionary stagnate, and we need those knowledge exchanges and learning environments and abilities to share and to go all the way full circle back to the start of our conversation. Having that time to connect with peers, listen to them, be it synchronously like this or asynchronously through a podcast interview that you listen to, or what have you, and actually carve out that moment to process and pick out the big lessons that you want to use. That's essential. And so part of me is like, how do we start a little campaign for teaching artists to say, Listen, as part of your work, carve out an hour a week, to talk to appear, that could be going to a workshop that could be calling someone on the phone, it could be listening to a podcast, and then journaling about I don't have to know, you know, but there's an element of this, that's really essential if we want to do the big things like cultivate spaces of civic imagination and infiltrate city government agencies, and do cross sector work on health and well being and city planning and youth development and whatever. Then we also need to take those moments for ourselves to learn and grow and reflect and evolve that practice. Because, yeah, I think about the opportunity cost if we don't, and we stagnate. You know, all this work is for naught.
Madeleine McGirk 46:08
Well, I feel like you've set me up perfectly, so I cannot not plug it in at seven right now after that. So for anyone who doesn't know, there will be a three day conference in New Zealand and September 2024, where we invite teaching artists from all over the world to join us for the conference, to do exactly this right to think through practice together to share knowledge approaches, everything and anything and see how it's done in different parts of the world network. Advocate Purcell's all that good stuff. So more details, like coming soon. But I just feel like after such a hearty endorsement of networks of practice, I cannot not mention next year's conference. So for anyone who thinks that sounds worth doing, I hope to see you in New Zealand next year.
Jeff M. Poulin 46:56
Yeah, I will be there because there's no question that I fully plan to attend. And in that same vein, too, I just want to give a little shout out to the newest cohort members of the Young and Emerging Leaders Forum, which I mentioned earlier, which is a joint project hosted by attack and Creative Generation. And we have some 46 amazing leaders from all around the world who will drop the link in the show notes so you can read more about them and what they'll be doing over the next year. But they're great. And the future is really bright with these growing communities of practice of teaching artists that are just doing incredible stuff from Michael Road to the next generation of leaders and hopefully everyone will be together in Auckland next year.
Madeleine McGirk 47:42
Well, with that being said, I feel like that's a really hopeful place to end this week's episode. So with that being said, Jeff, thank you so, so much for mulling this over with me for giving your thoughts on that chat with Michael and for everyone listening. Thank you for tuning in, and we look forward to connecting with you next time. Thank you everyone.
Jeff M. Poulin 48:03
Thanks for reading. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the show notes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write to us at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas, the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by Madeleine McGirk, the Executive Editor is Jeff M. pooling. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is Katie Rainey, this podcast theme music is by distant cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.