S3 Ep2: Sustaining Futures of Culture and Arts Education

During this episode of Why Change, Jeff provides reflection and background information on the global movement to advance arts education, including the recent World Summit of Arts Education hosted in Madeira, Portugal. Co-hosts Rachael and Madeleine join Jeff to reflect on their time together, in-person in Madeira Island, the big ideas they brought to the dialogue, and their visions for the future. Listeners are encouraged to participate in the efforts to aggregate ideas and visions for the future of the field for the UNESCO Framework for Culture and Arts Education. 

In this episode you’ll learn:

  • About the history of international support for arts and cultural education;

  • What happened at the 11th World Summit for Arts Education in Madeira, Portugal; and 

  • How artists and educators can share their thoughts about the future of culture and arts education.

Some things from the episode:

This episode was produced by Jeff M. Poulin. The artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. The audio is edited by Katie Rainey. This podcasts’ theme music is by Distant Cousins. For more information on this episode and Creative Generation please visit the episode’s web page and follow us on social media @Campaign4GenC.

  • Jeff M. Poulin 00:02
    This is why change the podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff. Oh, Hola. Hola, soy Carla. It's Rachel here. What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf. And I'm Madeline. Why change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started. Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Why change podcast. Jeff here. I'm just back from my first international trip of 2023. Attending the world Alliance for Arts Education World Summit of arts education, held in football Madeira Island, Portugal. Later in this episode, I'll debrief my trip with Rachel and Madeline, who are both present for this event representing their individual institutions, and having many conversations about the wide change podcast and the future of our field. This event, however, is the 11th World Summit on arts education, and was hosted by the world Alliance for Arts Education, the Madeira regional government, the regional Secretary of Education, Science and Technology, and the conservatory Professional School of the Arts of Madeira. This island was an amazing backdrop to have conversations about the conference theme, Heritage and Sustainability, sustaining islands of culture and arts education. The objective like many conference conferences around the world is to share knowledge, tradition and new practices in arts education, involving both traditional musical instruments, dances, tales and legends, but also contemporary practices and design visual arts, local sustainability, music, dance, theater, media and more. The Summit, of course had a hybrid format, and integrated different types of conversations, discussions, panels, workshops, posters, youth performances, and more from different stakeholders in our sector, like teachers, educators, researchers, students, cultural organizations, policymakers, producers, managers, and more. This event, however, is in direct response to the 2019 World Summit on arts education, which resulted in the publication of the Frankfurt Declaration, which offered the starting point for this dialogue. The Frankfurt declaration was crafted by about 250 contributors, involving artists, teachers and political organizers from around the world that gathered in Frankfurt, Germany in 2019. I was really lucky to be there for that. It's actually where I met both Rachel and Madeline. And at that event, I shared some of the foundational research of Creative Generation, which spurred a number of conversations here within our own organization that led to this very podcast. At the time, we thought of the Frankfurt declaration as being a grand call, a shift in the global narrative about arts and cultural education. To quote the declaration, we said that we call for transformative action for arts education as being integral to sustaining communities and meeting the needs of all people in the face of critical global challenges. This declaration celebrates the unprecedented arts performances linked to movements led by children and young people throughout the world. It asserts that arts education is a right for all towards the nurturing of a paradigm of solidarity, cooperation, and good living. This far separates the narrative that has been formed for many years about arts education as being the golden solution to bringing up standardized test scores are driving innovation in a capitalist society. But instead, we recognize that arts education is both a human right for every child around the world, as well as part of their own development in addressing their own cultural identity, proposing solutions to future global challenges, and cultivating a creativity that is inherent in all of us. Now, this conversation doesn't happen in a vacuum for almost two decades, advocates have been discussing new ways that international bodies like the United Nations or its cultural organization, UNESCO, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization to figure out how we actually support arts, cultural and creative learning. In 2006, UNESCO adopted the Lisbon roadmap for Arts Education, which found its roots and international doctrine lineage in the 1948 you Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the 1989 Convention of the Rights of the Child. Within these two, when combining both documents, you find that every child has the right to know discrimination, the right to education, the right to freedom of expression. And additionally, children, as enumerated in the conventions of the rights of the child in 1989 have the right to an education, the right to participate freely in cultural life and the arts, and the right to form his or her own views and the right to express those views freely in all matters affecting the child. Nations around the world have agreed to respect and promote the rights of children to fully participate in cultural and artistic life and encourage the provisions of appropriate equal opportunities for cultural, artistic, and creative activities. In the United States, this has actually been declared a civil rights issue by former US Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan, because nations around the world aren't actually delivering. So since then, UNESCO has adopted other doctrines like the soul agenda, which lent very specific guidance to nations around the world in supporting arts and cultural education through their formal education or cultural funding streams. These systems, though broadly diverse in cultures and communities, and nations around the world, do have certain objectives in common, which is why we continue to convene, and bring our perspectives, local practices, and ideas together to propose a unified vision for the future of artistic and cultural learning. At this conference, UNESCO provided a new framework for Arts Education. UNESCO member states in 2021, requested a revision process to develop a new framework for culture and arts education. The framework builds on the previous work in the fields of culture and arts education, like the roadmap and 2006 from Lisbon, or the sole agenda, which was titled goals for the development of arts education in 2010. The decision is at the request of the director general of UNESCO, and will convene a Third World Congress on arts education to be held this December 2023, in the United Arab Emirates. However, for the last year, UNESCO has been in a global consultation process, gathering the perspectives of educators and other cultural practitioners to inform this document that will serve as a framework for the future of arts and cultural education. In a survey to teachers and educators, many things were learned, some of which won't be a surprise, it certainly wasn't to me. In this work, teachers feel that they're limited by outdated concepts of and approaches to education. They feel that there's a dichotomy as to how arts education is understood and valued within the field of culture. That culture and arts education is largely neglected in general, primary and secondary education across global regions. It's all the same wherever you are in the world. However, there's the opportunity to strengthen capacities of educators through specialized and relevant training within the artistic disciplines like dance, media, music, theater, visual arts, and that training is needed, specifically in relation to the new digital and non digital transformations that are happening in education. Specifically on the heels of the COVID 19 pandemic. The educators need more time and flexibility. And that time and flexibility will improve access to quality pedagogic resources that can help advance both the teaching and the learning for students. This spurred a global thinkers meeting and experts meeting is what they call it at UNESCO that brought together some of the brightest minds in Seoul, South Korea. In this loose agenda was set for the future of the consultation period. Recognizing that there's an ever more importance to access to culture and arts education for students around the world that inclusivity needs to be prioritized increasing opportunities for the use of the arts with digital technology, and prioritizing contextualization in local community for culture and arts education. Our field seeks clarity of concepts, themes, terminologies and approaches related to culture and arts education. And this can be driven by a strengthening of cooperation between ministries or Departments of Education, Culture, and other youth serving bodies and government. We can build and support networks of cultural operators and entities locally, regionally, and globally. This one particularly strikes home for me with some of our work at Creative Generation. And lastly, we need to strengthen and increase our vocabulary around the evidence base of research and data as related to arts education, as well as the mechanisms of knowledge sharing throughout our sector. Never should we say we don't have research in arts education. We do. We may not know of it, though. So, as we gathered, these representatives from UNESCO asked the perspectives of those attending the conference, to influence the future framework for culture and arts education. In fact, many of the presentations, three of which I gave myself were aimed at solving those very challenges that educators described. In fact, one of the key messages of Creative Generation that I shared in 2019, and reinforced now and 2023, was around the message from teachers that they felt limited by outdated concepts and approaches to education, we must rethink how education is happening in the future. Of course, this was exacerbated in the COVID-19 and related pandemics. And that's what I shared in my second presentation. Now, not to make it about me, but to say that all of us that were gathered, had the solutions of the big questions that were elevated through this global consultation process. So I'm really happy to see that UNESCO is offering an opportunity for people all around the world to contribute to this framework. Though, not all of us can attend this giant meeting happening in UAE in December 2023. We can, however, contribute our ideas through a survey that they've just issued, we'll drop the link in the show notes. The survey aims to seek the views of educators and culture and arts education, and to influence the future of this work on a global scale. It was designed in consultation with the world Alliance for Arts Education in consultation with UNESCO. Together they believe that culture and arts education take on very complex meanings to different people worldwide. But we're all convinced that culture and arts education and its broad diversity, shape a more peaceful and sustainable future for both our people and our planet. And this work seeks professionals working in the sectors of culture and arts education, to help identify the current and future challenges and the needs of teachers and educators, culture and social workers, artists, and community organizations around the world who are often at the very front line of addressing the shifting priorities and challenges of young people, their communities, and our field. I encourage all of us to complete this questionnaire to contribute to the global consultation process, as it works to develop the UNESCO framework for culture and arts education. Now, for those who aren't policy minded like myself, this is an opportunity. It's a built in feedback loop. And I would argue it's our professional responsibility to advocate for what we need. Because documents like this, though sometimes only pieces of paper or PDFs online, do influence the decisions of those elected officials appointed ministers or Secretaries of Education, Culture, and other youth serving agencies to figure out how they Beth's disbursed funds, or create guidance to influence our future or cultural systems. This happens on a global scale, but has a trickle down effect. We've seen that in countries all around the world. The guidance that will come out of this to address current trends and issues or help prioritize culture and arts education within broader sectors of Education and Culture writ large, will help influence the future of our very work, whether we like it or not. So this is our time to be part of the dialogue. Check out the link in the show notes to contribute to this dialogue, and to give your opinions about what the future should be, how we address the challenges and what the solutions to those big questions are. I really encourage everyone to participate. And I hope that your voices can be part of the dialogue just like ours were on the island of Madeira a couple of weeks ago. Please consider it and check out the link in the show notes. Now I'm so excited to have two of our CO hosts join me for this episode to debrief the world Alliance for Arts Education Summit that just happened welcome Madeline and Rachel, it's good to see you after spending so much time together in person.

    Madeleine McGirk 15:05
    I know that was such a treat, oh, you got to hang out for like a whole week rather than just little zoom squares. That was lovely.

    Rachael Jacobs 15:12
    And it's so good to be seeing you again. But this is far inferior. In person, I have to say is and I can't wait to be to find out where our next venue where we can convene in real life not in pixels is but it's good to good to be having this conversation anyway. Yeah, absolutely.

    Jeff M. Poulin 15:31
    I think maybe that's where we should start. So as I mentioned to our listeners, before, this conference was hosted on Madeira Island, which is legally a part of Portugal, it's within the European Union. However, geographically, it's in the middle of the Atlantic quite close to the African continent. And, you know, the first few days that we were there, we spent a lot of time together in community, this community here, extending the conversations that I feel like we have over and over again, about the intersection of arts and culture and education and social justice, talking about the shifts in in our work, and how we've kind of coped in the last several years not actually seeing each other in person. And, you know, we did that atop of volcanic mountain, which to me, was just this amazing venue that intersected natural beauty with the culture of this place that none of us had ever been with the big ideas that we brought from our own distinct areas, both intellectually and physically. So I guess I wonder what are your thoughts now being off the island about that, the space that we were in the physical place on this volcanic rock in the middle of the Atlantic?

    Rachael Jacobs 16:47
    Definitely, Dara is magical. It is like nowhere on earth. At the same time, it has this beautiful familiarity about it, because I've been to Portugal before. And it has that I've been to many islands, you know, I live in an island in the Pacific Ocean, so and so it definitely has a bit of an island vibe about it. But my God, it is just a cultural, you know, this cultural density. It's absolutely stunning in its natural beauty, which we we've really got to engage with, which was absolutely amazing. It was just this perfect backdrop for these rich, creative conversations that happened over the course of the week. And I actually learned something that was a bit special for me. I presented my paper which is about anti racist education through drama and dance through the arts, in particular, using my medium of Bollywood dancing, because I'm an Indian Bollywood dancer. And I had this beautiful session full of Portuguese people. In fact, it was all Portuguese speakers. So it had to be translated into Portuguese. And we finished with some amazing Bollywood dancing. And the dance teachers came to me afterwards. And they said we cannot be sure. But we think this is the first Bollywood on material. And that was mind blowing. For me. That was absolutely mind blowing. And they said, Yeah, we don't think we have a strong Indian subcontinental diaspora. And they said, of course, we will must have done it at some stage with informal sense. We think we've actually never heard of this football was these two older dance teachers from Madeira. So that was incredibly special. And it was just Yeah, it was just a fantastic place to kind of settle in and drop your car guard to be really creative for a little bit.

    Jeff M. Poulin 18:45
    What about you Madeline? I think it's interesting too, because you didn't even change timezone. But it was drastically different. Right?

    Madeleine McGirk 18:51
    Yeah, exactly the same time as if it was here, but still, like a four hour flight over. But I kind of like Rachel, it's just in all of kind of the entire scenery, set up human feet and building on that. So if anyone hasn't been to Madeira, which I hadn't until this trip, it is like is really quite small island, in the middle of the ocean. And it's essentially cliffs and a few giant mountains and the homes and the villages are built like almost out of horizontal angle, just on top of these really dramatic angles of cliffs and and precipices and the homes and the driveways are just sort of correct that to make this just wild human thing that people have managed to create and it blows my mind every time you see something like that. And which I whichever direction you went, it was stunning. So if you went up into the mountains, it sudden you pass through about three different it feels like ECOSYS seems like one part's really green and plush one parts really volcanic looking, then it sort of evens out and it sort of looks like a farm. And then if you go in the other direction, which I had the luck of doing on the last day, and you go out to see, you're suddenly surrounded by ocean and whales and dolphins, and like it was just, yeah, whichever direction you chose to go for a few males, you'd end up somewhere completely different and stunning. And then, as Rachel said, it kind of provides this sort of ethereal, mad, majestic looking place for you to have all these big discussions or thoughts. And the complete change of scenery, I think is kind of conducive to those discussions, because you're sort of in awe and wonder at the world anyway, and then to start to go, oh, wouldn't it be amazing if what can you what would happen if and you sort of go down on these tangents, and you have the time and space to do it as well, because we were there for quite a few days together. So you're not sort of limited by needing to rush off to the next thing. And that, I think, was just a real luxury.

    Jeff M. Poulin 21:06
    Yeah, I mean, when we were talking about this episode, and the future of the third season of the life change podcast, we were literally walking above the clouds, a top of volcanic mountain, which is you want to talk about the ethereal and and thinking big, right? I mean, the metaphor is not lost there. But what's interesting, and I think something that both of you said, spoke to the sort of necessity of innovation and even creativity, one might argue, in it being this this island culture that is really crazy. I mean, whether it's the the geography, I mean, the amount of infrastructure and the problem solving, that went into making some of those villages accessible to the primary industries on the island or Rachel, you know, the, the diasporic nature of how people got there, and the melding of these cultures, there was obviously a lot of tourists but also a lot of people who chose to live for you know, what have you but this this melting pot of cultures. Were also there. And, you know, Rachel, I think you said that you you had a first with the Bollywood dance on Madeira. But I think you had another first two, which was an innovative way that they get down the mountain on Madeira, would you actually share that story?

    Rachael Jacobs 22:24
    Oh, my God. So it too, because it's so like hilly is an understatement. To say it's really all mountainous, it just seems like an understatement. Like you were saying that we were literally walking above the clouds like you just feel like you are in a heavenly a theory or place. Yeah, but you are on top of the world. And so we're at the top, you take the cable car of the top to the Botanical Gardens, and you've got a number of options to get down including the cable car. And of course, you can take a taxi down the other way. Or you can travel by traditional Madeiran basket, which is these two or three person baskets and you sit in there and you get pushed down a hill by two very very skilled Madeiran basket drivers who sort of hang on to the back of your basket, and they kind of skate you down. And it says this baskets that have these really smooth bottoms, I can't describe it. Everyone going Google Madeira basket ride or Madeira. Traditional basket was something like that. And imagine me in that screaming the ear out of Selena Busby Professor Selena Busby, who is an Arts professor and amazing drama educator. And just imagine me screaming the whole way down the hill in Madeira. That is innovation, right that innovation is I just want to know who was the first person to be like, you know, what we could walk or get in this mosque?

    Jeff M. Poulin 24:05
    I love it. And you know, but it's that traditional culture. That was the backdrop, and actually was the conference theme, as I shared earlier, to bring together the expertise from these islands be the geographical or islands of practice, towards a more sustainable future for our sector. So we were in fact there for a conference we did tack on several other meetings and, and planning conversations and dialogues. But so, Rachel, you shared a little bit about one of your presentations. But you know, I would wonder what we think now reflecting on what we did share I know personally, I shared some research at Creative Generation about arts integration and ecosystems and supporting that, about our study on the future of leadership within the arts and cultural education sector and also in our work looking through multiple lenses at how the field and particularly community be organizations in the field adapted to the crisis. And I shared those, particularly because we were thinking about the future of our sector. And I felt that those bodies of work really actually did answer some of the questions our field was posing to governmental bodies like UNESCO. But I wonder to both of you presented, so perhaps you're just a little bit about what you brought in and how that might have contributed to this dialogue?

    Madeleine McGirk 25:27
    Sure, so I presented on a tax new course, which is a totally free resource for teaching artists, community artists, really any artist with a social impact goal behind their work. And it's an online course on cadenza.com. And it's all over attacks website, if anyone's curious. But what it does is it provides some practical support for those artists who want to do work in that space, but maybe haven't done it before, or haven't approached it in that methodical kind of way before. So there are things like logic models, stakeholder maps, empathy, maps, ethical considerations to think about. And those are all kind of your guided through that process and the course. And so I wanted to share that resource. And so I hosted a workshop and I had a good 50 minutes, which was amazing. And it was the last day it was like last thing on the last day and I was so sure nobody was going to come or they'll be like exhausted or hungover or whatever. That became an I got a good group of maybe about 20 and mutton, I think about half the room was from Madeira, which was also just really lovely to have that interaction. And we went through and we developed plans for social impact. We talked about the SDGs that are relevant in our home places, and what our can lend to those topics. And if you were to plan your dream project, how would you know it had gone well? And how would you measure it? And what would be different because that work happened? And sort of pushing ourselves to be specific and honest about the capacity for change? And not, you know, when we did a workshop and everyone's lives were changed. But you know, how would you systematically approach the issue that we've just addressed and what would be different. And what was really interesting, given the theme of the sustainability and heritage was the Madeira and artists in the room communicated that during the pandemic, there had been a sort of shift in thinking that they had experienced because Madeira is not an accessible place to get to it was not an easy place to reach. And they said during that time, they only had access to what that island could provide them. Like literally because getting resources in and out of the island was so hard during COVID. And so they had this whole new appreciation and respect for sustainability in the most literal sense, like not using more than you can literally grow in half on the island. And so we had this whole interesting discussion about our role as artists, and what that can look like and what we can be doing with the skills that we have to enhance that discussion and create work and policy and systems that that kind of support that and empower that. So that was a really interesting session. And I was so happy that we had a group that came and really engaged and got it.

    Rachael Jacobs 28:31
    Level and I'm so pleased to be you because we talked about you having the graveyard session, last session on Friday afternoon or Friday evening in Madeira. And you thought surely everyone's going to be out dancing and things like that. But no, I mean, that speaks to the value of your work. And I actually am really interested in doing your cadenza course, because I think what you've outlined about sustainability practices is so, so important, so well done. Congratulations.

    Madeleine McGirk 28:59
    Thank you. I was so relieved. You have no idea and it's like contingency planning, okay? If two people come in, how do I make this not horrifically weird and uncomfortable for everyone involved? So I was delighted. You know, you

    Rachael Jacobs 29:11
    always do, right? You always sit there. It's like throwing a party during a conference presentation. You're like, no one comes. But if no one comes here to my, to my party, to my research, whatever. And you have a contingency plan, plan and look at you, you absolutely know that.

    Madeleine McGirk 29:30
    Thank you. Well, I know your session was equally eventful.

    Rachael Jacobs 29:35
    You know, honestly, we had a packed house as well. It was kind of standing room only which really blew me away. Because sometimes when you write that little title of your conference paper, or even when you write the abstract do you think is this is have I given people enough to make them want to come you know, is there enough to hang on to here and the paper that I did with Michael for Enter in for Mary Immaculate College in Limerick in Ireland, was a collaboration of our work. And it is very much a conceptual paper, there are snapshots of practice in there. There's not a practice based workshop or anything like that it is more of a deep dialogue and discussion. And so you sort of wonder, is anyone or anyone going to come? And are they going to get what they expect, and we had a packed house, and everyone seemed to leave a satisfied customer, which is fantastic. So what we talked about is work, collaborating on the concept of creative justice. So we're working on this concept of creative justice, which sits alongside all the other concepts of justice that we know about social justice, economic justice, environmental justice and climate justice. Here in Australia, we are constantly reminded of the need for First Nations justice, being here on Gadigal land in the Eora nation where sovereignty was never seen it. So we're wondering where creative justice sits alongside this, where creativity has a role in undoing the wrongs of the past, in creating a better future in that sustainable way that you talked about, in terms of reparations, where they'd be appropriate, and in terms of using creative creativity, to create that better world that we all aspire to. Because creativity can be harnessed by some really dark and evil forces. So creativity in itself is is our contention. And creativity in itself is not good. However, it can be used for very just aims. So we engage everyone in a dialogue around that we presented a draft model that we're working on, which has, which allows people to self reflect and kind of place themselves on a continuum. Am I a more activist direct action, you know, action orientated version of creative justice? Or is my work more agentive? Or is it more that it is embedded into my practice? It's not necessarily disruptive it is, you know, I'm not going to say a more passive version, but it is my actions come from being embedded in practice? And is it ontological? Is it to do with the self and how I operate? Or is it more external forces? All of these things are possible. And we presented the model and we asked our community for feedback. And our community, you were both there came to the party, which rich, deep dialog asking questions about what this means for artists, asking questions about what this means that arts education. Our work, by the way, is located in arts education, both Michael and I are arts educators. So we're it does have implications beyond the arts and beyond arts education. But that's where we're located at the moment. And I just felt that we had this really deep discussion, and Michael, and I got a lot of feedback on our model and on the paper that we're writing. And I've really felt that discussion is able to take a score to the next level.

    Jeff M. Poulin 33:16
    I would totally agree and and, you know, I think the thing about both of these sessions that's interesting is, you know, the very nature of the reason we were convening was to not only foster networking and knowledge exchange among practitioners around the world, but also to inform the future direction of arts and cultural education through this framework that's being offered by UNESCO and being workshopped. And so I sort of love the two examples that you just gave were, you know, real kind of practice based and real theoretical and, and that space in between that practice space in between is so important, because I think we can get lost in these Global Dialogues that happen every 10 or 15 years about what we should be doing. What's the North Star, you know, arguing over the semantics and the language, you know, that's put in policy and forgetting that actually, the solutions are at the most local level, right. And so that's actually my feedback. And I actually went in and tinkered with trying to honor that submitted, abstract Rachel that you were talking about, of what I had put in months previous, but I tried to actually thread the needle to address some of the questions that had been posed by UNESCO. And I think, Madeline, we were in the same room in one of the feedback conversations. But my message was quite clear. There's no need to reinvent anything to service our field. In fact, all of the biggest concerns of arts educators around the world have solutions. It's actually about uncovering them, networking them and scaling them. And so, you know, my presentations were sort of a trifecta that looked specifically at sort of the new approaches to artistic, cultural and creative learning with are deeply embedded in civic, social and educational practices, much like the concept of creative justice, much like the work of teaching artists, as applied to working towards these large Sustainable Development Goals, that we have to engage the ecosystems that surround us in our communities. And that's often driven by a specific leader, or set of leaders that bring diverse areas of expertise. And understanding this new conceptualization of leadership in our sector, is what actually allows us to be nimble to be responsive, as exemplified in the pandemics and the multiple crises that we experienced in 2020. And so I felt that there were a few people that were at literally all of my presentations. And I was like, yes, you have the full picture now. But the you know, the, the proceedings will be published, and folks can read it. However, as we close out this conversation, I do want to ask, the frame that we were asked to respond to was about this global framework and the futures the sustainable futures of arts education as part of this global ecosystem that supports culture and heritage and creativity in the world. So I wonder from, from your perspectives, maybe what you shared or just your work in general, what's your headline, you know, what's the big message that we should share with not only our sector, but also the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization as they pursue this next framework, which will no doubt influence the next I don't know, 10 or 15 years of arts education in the world.

    Madeleine McGirk 36:30
    I think I have a couple of answers. And the big one for me is partnerships and networks. And I think, working in partnerships, and I mean this across all levels, but I think as the frame we were given was arts education. And most of the discussion was around classroom delivery of arts education. And by classroom teachers, I think the importance for me of partnering and understanding the different intentions of the teacher. And so by that, I mean, there were a lot of people who really wanted to kneel, the delivery of lessons that would increase a competence and an art form. And that needed a real a whole set of resources and, and, and restructuring. But there was also those who, who would probably fall more under my bracket of teaching artistry, who wanted to use arts and that education space as a means for social transformation or school transformation, or something to do with culture and, and personal development. And I think those two intentions are so distinct, they sort of don't feel like the same subject to me. But what that needs them as partnership between teaching artists, or community artists, or people who are doing this work and are competent professionally in that area, and people who, you know, host the classroom space, but whose intention is something very different. And if we want to start cross pollinating or having all of these things happen at once, the need for partnership with teaching artists and infrastructure to support that is huge. And then the need for networks is the second one, because I think all of us heard some some bold assertions during that time of, we need more research about the impact of drama education, and we all kind of went, Oh, I think there's probably decades of that that exists. So I feel like the networks and the space to share so that if someone genuinely doesn't know that that stuff exists, and there's tons of it, and a lot of the prominent people who wrote that are in the room, you can ask those questions, then there has to be space to share and to make sure that knowledge is reaching everyone it needs to reach and all of the resources and access to those resources, and ability to unpick that together that there's a space for that. Because I think that the networking and the partnership side just enhances all of it. And it helps us get so specific about where the legitimate gaps are, and what needs to be addressed. And for me, that's infrastructure and partnering

    Rachael Jacobs 39:12
    Neverland so insightful. I just thought that I could learn a lot from that. That was that was really, really rich. Thank you. I guess for me, a lot of the conversations that we're having reflected the rapid pace of change in this world that seems to be accelerating. And the explosion of AI was touched upon in a couple of the keynotes and, you know, the need for us to remit return to the arts and humanities in that space and, and I guess not let that relentless pace diminish our humanity and that we have a very, very prominent role to play in in those very, very challenging conversations. I think, as the world is changing so dramatically, and at this relentless pace, the sense that I get is that the business as usual is just not going to cut it anymore. That we are we have a lot of research at our disposal, we have, you know, tools that tell us what do work, you know, as Madeline was just reflecting, but just keeping on doing what we're doing, and hoping that everyone wakes up and realizes that the arts are the answer and realizes how wonderful we are, it just isn't going to work, it's not going to happen. And we perhaps need to the whole entire world needs a sharp turns towards justice is what I think. And we need a sharp turn towards being responsive to the very, very, very many challenges in this world. We can't live in our bubble anymore, and pretend that doing the work, the good work that we do is enough, we have to be directly responsive to what's happening in the world.

    Jeff M. Poulin 41:04
    Yeah, I could not agree more Rachel, and then Madeline, I think your your two reflections are hyper practical approaches. And I think, you know, for me, my big takeaway is sort of, as I said earlier, that we don't need to actually invent anything new, I think the the solutions are there. But I also think we just need to get comfortable. As I mentioned, at the start of this episode, there is a really rich history of these Global Dialogues that actually act as this pendulum, sometimes we're only talking about the big goal, the big goal and the North Star and our aspirations, which are not very tangible, and really can't influence policy. And then on the other side, we get hyper prescriptive and and say, you know, every child needs exactly 42 minutes of music instruction, in order to be creative for life, which is just bullshit. And it's finding that balance in between. And I think, as the world is rapidly changing, and you do have forces like AI, but we also know that the cultivation of individual cultural identity is essential to mental health and well being, we have to strike that balance, we have to remain nimble and, and responsive, but also have the heft of what comes with that deeply ingrained community practice that you were talking about Madeline. And, but also we need to scale, which means you're not going to be as as deep right. And so my big takeaway, and my vision for the future is that we must resist grand narratives about the benefits of arts and creative learning, because one visit to a museum will not make you more empathetic for life, one field trip or one exposure to an artistic experience is not going to change you for the rest of your life. It is deep practice. But also, there is an element of the silver bullet solution to big global complex challenges. And that's also not going to be the case. And so recognizing sort of how we navigate and instead of, of creating a framework and promising a big solution, leaning into the gray area, understanding what that it's a little bit messy, I have a colleague here at Creative Generation that talks about swimming in the soup, you know, and that's just sort of part of of what it is. And, you know, for a while on this podcast, I kept talking about holding tensions, the ability to hold tensions. And I really do think for our sector, that is something that we we have to practice more, you know, we're very good at holding the tension between education and arts and culture. But I think not so much in some of these infrastructural things. And as Madeleine mentioned, that infrastructure, particularly that responsive infrastructure, to your point, Rachael, is what's needed. And in order to do that, we have to sort of be these these operators, not a grandiose grand solution to a big, a big narrative. And so I think it's going to be an interesting future for our field, but I will reissue the invitation that I mentioned earlier, and we will drop the link in the chat that the the UNESCO representatives at this conference did put forward a survey for arts and cultural educators, and we do encourage all of our listeners to go forward and and fill that out to give their perspective to influence this framework moving forward. But, you know, all in all, I think the future is bright. I think the examples the people, the cultures that we experienced in our field are interesting. They're promising and, and the ideas are bountiful. And so I thank you both so much for for both joining me for this debrief, but also for spending so much time in and sharing all of those, those knowledges but it really did leave me hopeful not only because we were on a beautiful island but hopeful for the future of our work.

    Madeleine McGirk 45:04
    Yeah, me too, I think it would be impossible to come away from, you know, a week with the people that I was lucky enough to spend that week with and not be energized and excited and feeling a little inadequate, but like in a way that pushes you to go and be, you know, equally as impressive. And I think the value I find in these gatherings is so huge just for those moments where we all kind of problem solve the world together and then come away with plans. Yeah, I found it infinitely valuable.

    Rachael Jacobs 45:34
    I can't agree more, Jeff, it was incredibly a hopeful place to be. And I'm not just saying that because you know, there was sunset over the ocean and it was a beautiful for what people tell me is warm 20 degrees. For me, it was still freezing cold. But everyone was like, this is just absolutely amazing. But I felt the warmth of the good people of the conference like yourselves. But I did find it incredibly hopeful and a very, very inspiring place to be both the island of Madeira itself, but also finding yourself surrounded by so many people, you know, with so much hope for the world, and so many people who are really committed to doing whatever it takes to make sure that that that future is is arts led and is really wonderful.

    Jeff M. Poulin 46:24
    Well, great. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you listeners for listening, and we will catch you next time. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of why change the podcast for a Creative Generation. All sources discussed in this episode are located in the show notes. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Also, you can write us at info at Creative dash generation.org We would love to hear your ideas the topics you want to learn about and why change matters to you. This episode was produced by me Jeff M pooling. Our artwork is by Bridget Woodbury. Our editor is Katie Rainey, the podcast theme music is by distant cousins. A special thanks to our contributors, co hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.