During this fourth episode of Why Change? you will meet one of our co-hosts, Madeleine McGirk. Madeleine is an actor and teaching artist and leads a global network supporting participatory artists. She has an interest in politics, social change through the arts, and inspiring, powerful women leaders.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
About efforts to connect the global field of teaching artists
Madeleine’s thoughts on the connection between the arts and politics
Who and what keep her focused and ready to reinvent systems.
Check out some of the things mentioned during this podcast, including:
ABOUT MADELEINE MCGIRK
Madeleine McGirk is the Managing Director of the International Teaching Artists Collaborative (ITAC), which works to connect and promote teaching artists and their practice around the world. Madeleine is based in Edinburgh, Scotland, where she supports all of the Collaborative's activities. Her role includes overseeing monthly Think Tanks, network and Hub development, project management and the ground-breaking ITAC conferences held biennially (hosted most recently in 2020 by Korean Arts and Culture Education Service, and in 2018 by Carnegie Hall & Lincoln Center NYC ). She coordinates international partnership projects, speaks at global arts education conferences and organises regular development opportunities for the network.
Madeleine is a trained actor, and has worked as a freelance teaching artist for some of Scotland's leading youth theatres. She is the former Executive Director of the Scottish European Educational Trust (SEET), a national educational organisation which works to encourage international understanding and language learning through innovative practices. During her time at SEET, Madeleine was invited to speak as part of an education delegation at the European Commission, European Parliament Information Office and Scottish Parliament. Madeleine is passionate about her work in the arts and education sector, and is committed to furthering international connectivity in our field and beyond.
You can find Madeleine on IG, Facebook, and Twitter @ITACCOLLAB and at www.itac-collaborative.com.
This episode of Why Change? A Podcast for the Creative Generation was powered by Creative Generation. It was produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Artwork by Bridget Woodbury. Music by Distant Cousins.
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Jeff M. Poulin
This is Why Change? The Podcast for Creative Generation. We are your hosts. I'm Jeff.
Karla Rivera
Hola. Hola, soy Karla.
Rachael Jacobs
It's Rachel here.
Ashraf Hasham
What's good, y'all. I'm Ashraf.
Madeleine McGirk
And I'm Madeline.
Jeff M. Poulin
Why change is a podcast that brings listeners around the globe to learn how arts, culture and creativity, especially as applied by young people can change the world, one community at a time. You're invited each week to learn and laugh while exploring the question. Why change? Alright, let's get started. Welcome, everyone to this fourth episode of the Why Change podcast and the last in our series introducing the Co hosts. I'm Jeff M. Poulin, the managing director of Creative Generation and host of this podcast. In a moment, I'll introduce an interview with my co host Madeleine McGurk. This conversation will end with a series of questions that will be a part of every interview that we do. Thinking about the who, what, where, when, and why of her work. Starting next week, mark your calendars each Wednesday at 7am. Eastern Standard Time to join a few of our co hosts as we come together to learn and laugh about our work, current events and much more before introducing our interview for the week. These interviews, much like the one that you'll hear today will feature a creative change maker and explore the how and the so what of what they do in their communities. Now I'd like to introduce you to Madeleine McGirk is coming to us from the City of Edinburgh in Scotland. Madeleine is a participatory artists policy wonk and currently serves as the managing director of ITAC the international teaching artists collaborative, which she'll explain more about in a moment. Her work brings her around the globe, virtually for now, but in person before to support the folks using arts to tackle complex community challenges. They're often known as teaching artists, participatory artists, artists for social change or more. In Scotland, though, she's been involved with theatre work, education, work, policy work, and a ton of other things. Anyways, you'll learn more from her in just a moment. Welcome, Madeline, I am thrilled to introduce you to all of the listeners of the why change podcast, we got to know each other a few years ago through some of our international work. In fact, I think it was working with a group of arts educators. And we really hit it off at a bar in Germany. So it really struck me at that point that I knew that I wanted to collaborate on other projects. And really, we've had some success doing that in the past few years. So I am thrilled to have you here with us and wanted to talk to you just a little bit about some of the work that you do and who you are as a person, as we will get to know each other over the course of this project and this podcast. So right now you're the managing director of the International teaching artists collaborative. Can you tell us a little bit about that work and what you do?
Madeleine McGirk
Yes, thank you for having me. I'm so excited. And it was yeah, that was so much fun. I missed being able to go places like Germany and have those little adventures but it feels like such a long time ago, neither were we able to do that. But yes, as you said, I'm the managing director of ITAC which means I oversee all of our activities and help set our general course of direction. And for those who don't know, ITAC is an international network run for and by teaching artists, and participatory arts as my background. So I love that I get to work with people who have a similar sort of passion to the one that I have. And we run free ongoing professional development opportunities. We develop resources, fun projects, called international gatherings every two years, where everyone can sort of come together to network and generally support each other. And my favorite ever description of ITAC was on a feedback forum we got after one of our conferences, and they said it's like Disneyland for teaching artists. So if I put that on, like a CV, or my website or a banner, I would love that description. And I also usually mentioned when I talk about ITAC, that it was founded about 10 years ago by Merit Alvand and Eric booth. And for people who work in teaching artistry or participatory arts, those are usually familiar names. So I usually drop them in so people get a feel of our vibe and who's involved. And I also have a board of Leadership Committee members, and they're very international, and they're on our website if you want to see who's involved, but they're a really great team, like steering our direction and giving perspective.
Jeff M. Poulin
So for those who want to learn a little bit more, what is that website to the organization?
Madeleine McGirk
It's ITAC-collaborative.com. And there's all the projects and people and ways to get involved. That's all there.
Jeff M. Poulin
So you said that you yourself are participatory artists? How did you get into that? What's this origin story of yours?
Madeleine McGirk
Yes. And I love it, I feel like I've always done it. And I was thinking about five or six when I started doing youth theater. But that's always been a huge part of my life, I would never stop performing, my parents will tell you. And so, I always wanted to be involved in that world. And I loved the buzz of being on stage and the sort of live sparks. But then I also really liked everyone else in the class and how it shifted them. Like, I'm not shy, I've never been accused of being shy. But some of the kids in the class were like, cripplingly So, and all of a sudden, you would do these activities, and they would just come out of their shell. And it was, it was the most amazing thing to see. And I don't think I ever forgot it. And so, when I went on, I went to university, and I did my actors training, and I did filmmaking. And then I came out with my degree, and I knew I wanted to do acting. But equally, I knew that wasn't all I wanted to do, I always find with acting, it can be quite insular or quite like you and the other person in the scene. Whereas with participatory work, it's much more engaging with people around you. So, I knew I wanted to do that. And I got involved in teaching Youth Theatre. And then from that I got involved in working with a charity. And I love that work. So, I was brought on to this as a national education charity. And I was doing work with young people who were migrants, or recently arrived in the country. And we were doing work on filmmaking. And a lot of them didn't have English or English wasn't their first language. So, the visual arts were really helpful there. And that meant that we could use filmmaking as a way to sort of equip them to tell their stories or to express their perspectives. And that was really cool. And it was the first time I had sort of seen aren't used in that way beyond my own sort of youth theater experiences, and then I was just hooked. And then I heard about ITAC, which was this international network of people who do that and do that at a level that was kind of mind blowing. So then when I, when I heard about the conferences, and when the job came up, I was just like, yes, this is, this is for me. And I've Yeah, I've never looked back. I love, love, love what I get to do. And so, I feel very lucky that way.
Jeff M. Poulin
I know, Madeline. But you also have a great interest in politics, too. We share a love of The West Wing, and bond over the idealistic perspectives that this piece of film or theater brings to our worlds. So how have you seen politics interact with your work in cultural or education sectors?
Madeleine McGirk
Yes, I do love the West Wing. And I've now got my partner heavily involved, too. It's like the ultimate comfort show, especially when it was like the Trump years. And you could look at it and be like, oh, someday, someday there will be a Bartlett or something. But yes, to answer your question, I, it was kind of gradual. For me, I never thought of myself as a political person. As such, until I started doing well, there were phases. But when I started doing the work with that charity, working with young people, and migration, and education, all of those things became very immediate and very urgent to me. And it gave me a deeper level of understanding, like I had intellectually understood it, and I knew current affairs, but I hadn't really seen firsthand the effects and the impacts and the real time issues that came out of it. And then when I was also doing that work, I was working with students, teachers, local authorities, government at one stage European union officials, and we were having these conversations about what was needed and what they wanted to happen. And then I sort of managed to develop this understanding of what the terminology in the languages you have to use to get the funds to do the thing. And then so I was kind of lucky to be in this position where I was with the kids and teachers hearing what they needed. But then I had to develop this sort of really niche understanding of the language that needed to be used to get the money to make it happen. And so, I was able to kind of facilitate some really nice work that way, not always, but it placed me in a really good position to see what the priorities were, what the gaps were politically and funding wise, and then figure out what I felt needed to happen to address those gaps. So, it’s kind of been a developing thing for me. But I also don't think that you can really separate the two either like, to me, politics dictates what participatory arts has to be, because it's what creates the gaps or the social conditions that artists then go in and address. So, I feel like the artists are also the ones that amplify the voices of the people that want to be heard oftentimes. So, it's this kind of dance between, you can't have one without the other. And I hope that one is constantly moving to make the other one better, if that makes sense.
Jeff M. Poulin
It absolutely does. And that gives me some hope, really, about the work that we do, and you know, the addressing of those conditions, really, and the challenges that people face. So, you know, whether in Scotland or with the teaching artists that you work with, who are all over the world, on all of the continents, where do you see the future of the work of teaching artists maybe through that lens that you just talked about? They're working with young creatives, they're amplifying those voices, they're creating pathways for change. Like, if you could predict the future, what should we all be doing to prepare for what comes next in this chapter of our work?
Madeleine McGirk
That's a good question. I think about this a lot. Because with running a network, you try to be strategic about what you mobilize energy and, and skill sets to do. And I think that whatever the future is, teaching artists is going to have to be essential. But I think one of the key things we need to do is to organize more effectively, and to make a bigger, a bigger splash about what our work actually does. Because I think, in our sector, we have a really good understanding of the kind of mental shifts, behavioral shifts, societal shifts, that can happen when teaching artists are at the center of communities, facilitating conversations or transforming conflict. But I don't know that there's a good understanding of that outside of the arts. And so, or even in certain sectors of the arts itself. So, I think if we're really looking to the future, we need to do some thinking about how we foster our own leaders, locally, nationally, internationally, because it can't just be the practice, because the practice exists in this bigger ecosystem, which we have to make sure supports the practice. And so, for that, you need shrewd comms thinking, PR, you need marketing, you need all of these different things to make the splash that makes people understand that gets the funding. And so, it's like a sort of giant swirl of things that need to happen for people to understand that the future needs teaching artists like even if you just think of COVID. And we know that our huge social issues are coming, a mental health crisis and job losses and all sorts, and we know that teaching artists are equipped to tackle some of these issues. And we've seen it done all over the world. But I don't know that people recognize that yet beyond our own sector. So, I think there are a million ways we could be involved. But I think being organized and strategy heavy is going to be really crucial for us getting where we need to go.
Jeff M. Poulin
Yeah, you're talking a little bit about movement building and those broader communication strategies. So, as you come on and join us as a co-host for the why change podcast? What is it that you think that you're likely to focus on? What types of stories do you want to be telling?
Madeleine McGirk
I'm one of these people who is interested in everything. My friends always joke about, oh, what hobbies Madeline's doing this week. Like, I just want to learn and understand everything. And if I had to choose, though, I'm particularly drawn to work which addresses gender issues, or some kind of conflict transformation. A teaching artist we know is usually working at the center of areas of conflict and shifting perceptions and behavior and communities. And I am just so intrigued by that, I find that amazing and fascinating. And it's the kind of stories I wish people heard more of. I'm very optimistic and very practical. So, I like the idea of that kind of facilitation, existing and amplifying the voices of the people who do really well because it's so skillful to do that without imposing ideas or still being respectful of everyone involved and cultures and viewpoints. The people who are really nailing that I would just love to hear more from them and the practicalities around how that happens. I just find that amazing
Jeff M. Poulin
on this podcast as we get to know folks all around the world and better understand the work that they do like you were just describing. We also want to understand a little bit about what's happening for them as individuals and just a few short answers. So, I wanted to start with you. Okay, are you ready?
Madeleine McGirk
Ready. Okay.
Jeff M. Poulin
So, the first question, who inspires you?
Madeleine McGirk
Lots of people I have, I'd say, Hillary Clinton, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Nicola Sturgeon. I have pictures above my desk have framed women who inspire me, we have Malala. We have Harriet Tubman. We have Michelle Obama, we have literally a row of women with framed pictures. So, there's a lot of them.
Jeff M. Poulin
And what keeps you motivated?
Madeleine McGirk
Seeing progress. Only when I start to see progress happen? Does it sort of feel like, like, that's when the uphill climb sort of levels out? And you're like, oh, what's happening? There's a shift. And then that always sort of spurs me on to be like, one more person and the next thing and then the next thing?
Jeff M. Poulin
And where are you most grounded?
Madeleine McGirk
That would be my sister's house. She has a three-year-old who is my nephew, the only baby of the family. And yeah, you can't be too, too involved with yourself when you're playing like Transformers or Paw Patrol or something. So, I'd say my sister's house.
Jeff M. Poulin
How do you stay focused?
Madeleine McGirk
I say speaking to like-minded people, and like yourself. If ever I lose steam and momentum, hearing someone else talk eloquently about the thing that you were excited about in the first place, I think is a really good impetus to get you go in again.
Jeff M. Poulin
And last but not least, why change?
Madeleine McGirk
Well, we have to because you and I have talked about this a lot that the old system wasn't really serving us. It wasn't built by and for people like us. And it's just I think we can do better. Well,
Jeff M. Poulin
Thank you, Madeline, for both being here for this first interview and for joining the why change podcast as a co-host.
Madeleine McGirk
Thank you I'm so excited.
Jeff M. Poulin
I hope you enjoyed our fourth episode of why change the podcast for Creative Generation. All sources discussed in today's episode are located in the show notes. Be sure to tune back in next week to see what's happening around the world. If you haven't already, be sure to follow us on social media like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn. Also, please write to us at Creative generation.org We would love to hear your ideas on the topics you'd like to learn about and why change matters to you. Our show is produced and edited by Daniel Stanley. Our music is by Distant Cousins. A special thanks to our contributors co-hosts and the team at Creative Generation for their support.